尽管俄罗斯人是西方的白人同胞，为什么还是厌恶他们？（上）
Why does the West hate Russia even though Russians are their white brothers?
译文简介
奇怪的问题。西方去年才开始恨俄罗斯人。
正文翻译
Why does the West hate Russia even though Russians are their white brothers?
尽管俄罗斯人是西方的白人同胞，为什么还是厌恶他们？（上）
评论翻译
相关链接
-
- 俄罗斯如何看待中国人称俄罗斯人是战斗民族？看看俄罗斯人的自吹自 2023/01/10 19561 53 1
-
- 俄网友：日本是个残酷的民族，用学来的知识对付昨日的老师，俄罗斯 2023/01/10 12497 16 1
-
- 俄罗斯人看苏联历史，怀念祖国当年的富强 2023/01/09 14728 67 1
-
- 作为一个美国白人，你觉得一个人能在多大程度上理解美国黑人的经历 2022/12/29 5625 12 1
-
- QA：在“彩虹之国”南非中，为什么只有白人城镇在蓬勃发展？ 2022/12/17 8264 25 1
-
- （下）北美被欧洲人殖民，留下了大部分白人人口，但墨西哥也被欧洲 2022/12/09 5923 12 1
-
- （上）北美被欧洲人殖民，留下了大部分白人人口，但墨西哥也被欧洲 2022/12/09 10917 24 1
-
- 让西方品牌陷入困境的中国电动车 2022/11/18 18627 20 1
Odd question. The west only started hating Russians in the past year. Meanwhile, Putin and his propagandists have stated clearly, frequently and officially that they dispise The West and consider themselves in a holy war against the decadent West, which they have been planning for decades. So you have the question completely backwards.
奇怪的问题。西方去年才开始恨俄罗斯人。
与此同时，普京和他的宣传人员已经明确、频繁和正式地表示，他们蔑视西方，认为自己正在进行一场反对腐朽西方的圣战，他们已经计划了几十年。所以你的问题完全颠倒了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Are you wondering why a bunch of white people hate another bunch of white people?
This is a perfectly fair question from someone who lacks education in history. That is not necessarily a bad thing; when you lack something, you are more aware of yourself than a lot of self-proclaimed historians on Quora.
Now, I just want to point out that lots of conflicts are not racial in nature; take a look at the wars that have plagued the Democratic Republic of the Congo since its independence,or the American Civil War.
The vast majority of Congolese are black; the vast majority of Americans were white during the American Civil War, but these wars occurred. Even today, there is plenty of tension among Congolese, and the northern and southern parts of the United States struggle to agree on anything.
你想知道为什么一群白人恨另一群白人吗?
对于一个未受历史教育的人来说，这是一个非常合理的问题。这未必是件坏事，当你缺少什么时，你比Quora上许多自称历史学家的人更了解自己。
现在，我想指出的是很多冲突在本质上并不是种族冲突。看看刚果民主共和国独立以来的战争，或者美国内战。绝大多数刚果人是黑人;在美国内战期间，绝大多数美国人都是白人，但这些战争还是发生了。即使在今天，刚果人之间的关系仍然很紧张，美国的南北地区也很难在各个问题上达成一致。
Before I can answer that question, I should note that Western countries have hated each other for about as much time as they have hated Russia. For example, there have been lots of conflicts between England and Ireland, England and France, Prussia (Germany) and France, Bavaria (now part of Germany) and Prussia and Austria, and more. Conflicts in these cases, especially when we look at history, have far more to do with factors such as resources and power than race. Even racial conflicts have to do with power more than with race; having studied anti-Semitism, I think that it historically has to do more with jealousy than with actual racism against Jewish people. Had there been another group that was perceived to be as studious, that group would have faced discrimination (Catholic versus Protestant conflicts).
Now, with this in mind, the first anti-Russian Western sentiment comes from the nineteenth century, specifically Napoleon Bonaparte. Let us take a look at page 132 of Memory and Power in Post-War Europe: Studies in the Presence of the Past with this excerpt from Iver B. Neumann, a former professor at the London School of Economics.
那么，为什么很多西方国家讨厌俄罗斯呢?
在我回答这个问题之前，我应该指出，西方国家相互憎恨的时间和他们憎恨俄罗斯的时间差不多。例如，英格兰和爱尔兰之间、英格兰和法兰西之间、普鲁士和法兰西之间，巴伐利亚（德国一部分）和普鲁士和奥地利之间……有很多冲突。
在这些情况下，尤其是当我们回顾历史时，冲突更多地与资源和权力等因素有关，而不是种族。甚至种族冲突也更多地与权力有关，而不是与种族有关。在研究了反犹太主义之后，我认为它在历史上更多地与嫉妒有关，而不是针对犹太人的真正种族主义。如果有另外一个被认为是勤奋的群体，这个群体就会面临歧视(天主教和新教的冲突)。
考虑到这一点，西方第一次反俄情绪来自19世纪，特别是拿破仑·波拿巴。让我们看看《战后欧洲的记忆与权力:对过去存在的研究》第132页，摘自前伦敦经济学院教授伊弗·b·诺伊曼(Iver B. Neumann)。
Napoleon’s anti-Russian sentiment, leading to his invasion of Russia, was done to impose his desire to conquer Europe. Since he thought that the Russian-style monarchy would spread through Europe, despite he himself being a de facto monarch, he wished to impose French monarchy on the places that he invaded, such as Slovakia. You can also take a look at another major Western country and world colonizer: the British. The British controlled India for a long time, and when Russia advanced in Central Asia, Britain had a fear that Russia would come near enough to India that its presence would cause disturbances in India. The protection of colonial possessions (Britain) and the desire to expand one’s territory (French) is why the West hated Russia in the past. Why does the West hate Russia today?
The West currently hates Russia due to Russian interference in Western elections,and also due to the same power dynamics that we talked about this far. It really is that simple, and really has nothing to do with race.
导致拿破仑入侵俄国的反俄情绪，是为了强加他征服欧洲的欲望。因为他认为俄国式的君主政体会在欧洲蔓延，尽管他自己就是事实上的君主。他想把法国的君主制强加到他入侵的地方，比如斯洛伐克。
你也可以看看另一个主要的西方国家和世界殖民者：英国。英国人控制了印度很长一段时间，当俄国人在中亚推进时，英国担心俄罗斯会靠近印度，以至于它的存在会在印度引起骚乱。
对殖民地的保护(英国)和扩张领土的渴望(法国)是西方过去憎恨俄罗斯的原因。
为什么西方今天讨厌俄罗斯?
西方目前讨厌俄罗斯，因为俄罗斯干涉西方选举，也因为我们到目前为止讨论过的同样的权力动态。真的就是这么简单，真的和种族无关。
I see someone knows absolutely NO European history.
White people have been killing other white people in huge slaughters for thousands of years. The West hating their white Russian brothers is par for the course. I’m quite confused why you think it should be any different. White people are quite the bloodthirsty bunch, fighting with each other like mangy dogs over a bone if we go by the very long and unfinished list below. LOL.
In fact, that’s a fundamental reason why the European unx was set up after the last gargantuan slaughter had ended in 1945. So far, the EU and its structures have been working out well for a good chunk of Europe, as peace has persisted in its western part for an almost unprecedented 80 years. These EU institutions took the bone out and cured the mange of a lot of Europeans.
Below is a non-comprehensive list of these giant slaughters that go back roughly 2,000 years in Europe:
我看到有人完全不懂欧洲历史。
几千年来，白人一直在大规模屠杀其他白人。西方憎恨他们的白种俄罗斯兄弟是意料之中的事。我很困惑为什么你认为应该有所不同。白人是相当嗜血的一群人，如果我们看看下面长长的未完成的列表，他们就像肮脏的狗一样为了一根骨头而互相争斗，哈哈。
事实上，这就是欧盟在1945年最后一次大规模屠杀结束后成立的根本原因。迄今为止，欧盟及其架构在欧洲大部分地区运行良好，其西部地区和平持续了几乎前所未有的80年。这些欧盟机构去掉了许多欧洲人的骨头，治好了他们的疥疮。
以下是过去大约2000年里在欧洲发生的大型屠杀的不全面清单:
-The Gallic wars, where over 1 million white people were killed as the Romans conquered and incorporated France into the Roman Empire.
-The Iceni Revolt, where over 150,000 white people were killed as the Romans subdued a huge revolt in Roman Britain.
-The fall of Rome with the barbarian invasions, where about 4 million white people were killed as white barbarian hordes—the vast majority Germanic—killed Roman Empire citizens throughout Europe.
-The Anglo-Saxon invasions, where about 100,000 white people were killed as various Germanic tribes invaded the British Isles, driving the native Celts out of their lands.
-The Viking invasions, where about 200,000 white people were killed as various small Scandinavian kingdoms pillaged and conquered numerous chunks of western and eastern Europe.
-The Albigensian Crusade, where about 700,000 white people were killed when the kingdom of France subdued the Cathar states in southern France.
-The Wars of Scottish Independence, where about 150,000 white people were killed when the kingdom of England tried to subdue the kingdom of Scotland.
-The Hundreds’ Years War, where about 3 million white people were killed as the kingdom of England invaded and conquered chunks of the kingdom of France.
-日耳曼战争，罗马人试图征服德意志，200多万白人被杀。
-高卢战争，在罗马人征服并将法国纳入罗马帝国的过程中，有100多万白人被杀。
-伊塞尼起义，在罗马人镇压不列颠的一场大规模起义时，超过15万白人被杀。
-蛮族入侵导致罗马覆灭，大约有400万白人被白人蛮族屠杀，其中绝大多数是日耳曼人在欧洲各地杀害的罗马帝国公民。
-盎格鲁-撒克逊入侵，各种日耳曼部落入侵不列颠群岛，将当地的凯尔特人赶出他们的土地，大约10万白人被杀。
-维京人的入侵，大约20万白人被杀，各个斯堪的纳维亚小国掠夺并征服了西欧和东欧的大片地区。
-阿尔比派十字军东征，当法兰西王国征服法国南部的伽他利王朝时，大约70万白人被杀。
-苏格兰独立战争，英格兰王国试图征服苏格兰王国，约15万白人被杀。
-百年战争，在英格兰王国入侵并征服法兰西王国的大片地区时，大约300万白人被杀。
-The German Peasants’ War, where about 100,000 white people were killed as German peasants revolted against the Swabian League.
-The French Wars of Religion, where about 3 million white people were killed as French Catholics fought and subdued French Protestants.
-The Eighty Years’ War, where about 650,000 white people were killed as the Dutch fought off Spanish rule.
-The Anglo-Spanish War, where about 140,000 white people were killed as England fended off Spanish encroachment into the British Isles.
-The Nine Years’ War, where about 130,000 white people were killed as the Irish rebelled against English rule.
-The Time of Troubles, where about 1 million white people were killed as the Tsardom of Russia sank into anarchy while Poland-Lithuania and Sweden invaded Russia.
-The Thirty Years’ War, where about 10 million white people were killed as all the major European kingdoms fought over control of the Holy Roman Empire.
-The Franco-Spanish War, where about 200,000 white people were killed as France fought off Spanish encroachment.
-意大利战争，在欧洲各国争夺意大利的战争中，约有40万白人被杀。
-德国农民战争，德国农民反抗斯瓦比亚联盟，约有10万白人被杀。
-法国宗教战争，在法国天主教徒与法国新教徒的战斗和镇压中，约有300万白人被杀。
-八十年战争，荷兰人在反抗西班牙统治的过程中杀死了大约65万白人。
-英西战争，在这场战争中，为了抵御西班牙人对不列颠群岛的入侵，大约有14万白人被杀。
-九年战争，在爱尔兰人反抗英国统治的战争中，约有13万白人被杀。
-动乱时期，当波兰-立陶宛和瑞典入侵俄罗斯时，大约有100万白人被杀，沙皇俄国陷入无政府状态。
-三十年战争，欧洲主要王国争夺神圣罗马帝国的控制权，约有1000万白人被杀。
-法国-西班牙战争，在这场战争中，法国为了抵抗西班牙人的入侵，大约有20万白人被杀。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
-The Deluge, where about 3 million white people were killed as Sweden and Russia invaded Poland-Lithuania.
-The Franco-Dutch War, where about 340,00 white people were killed as the Netherlands fought off French encroachment.
-The War of the League of Augsburg, where about 700,000 white people were killed as France fought the combined strength of the League of Augsburg.
-The Great Northern War, where about 400,000 white people were killed as Russia invaded Sweden and Poland-Lithuania.
Etc., etc. I had to end in the late 1600s because white people slaughtering other white people in vast numbers has happened so much in history that I ran out of steam writing down the more notable slaughters, where over 100,000 or more white people were killed. It’s a lot. Other than the Thirty Years’ War, we haven’t gotten to the gargantuan 10 million+ slaughters, like the world wars. So I think you get the picture. :D
-三国战争(War of the Three Kingdoms)，爱尔兰人和保皇党人在不列颠群岛反抗新教统治，造成大约80万白人死亡。
-大洪水，在瑞典和俄罗斯入侵波兰-立陶宛时，大约300万白人被杀。
-法荷战争，在这场战争中，约34万白人在荷兰抵抗法国入侵的过程中丧生。
-奥格斯堡联盟战争，法国与奥格斯堡联盟的联合力量作战，约有70万白人丧生。
-大北方战争，俄罗斯入侵瑞典和波兰-立陶宛，造成大约40万白人死亡。
不一而足。我必须在17世纪后期结束，因为白人屠杀其他白人在历史上发生的太多了，以至于我没有精力写下更著名的屠杀，超过10万甚至多得多的白人被杀。这样的历史事件太多了。除了三十年战争，我们还没有达到1000万以上的屠杀，就像世界大战一样。我想你们应该明白了。/笑
Wait… are you asking “why does one group of white people hate another group of white people?” Have you uh… ever taken a single history class, ever?
The majority of wars in the last 1,000 years were fought between groups of white people who hated each other. They even wrote a book on it:
As far as I am aware, every neighboring nation in Europe has hated each other at some point in their history; most still do. Being white has nothing to do with it.
American comedians love to joke about how “all the Asians hate all the other Asians”. The same can be said of all the Europeans. Living in the same neighborhood for centuries and millennia invariably develops mutual animosity and hatred.
等等，你是在问“为什么一群白人憎恨另一群白人?” 你……上过历史课吗，嗯?
在过去的1000年里，大多数战争都是在相互仇恨的白人群体之间进行的。他们甚至为此写了一本书:
图：《1000年惹人厌烦的法兰西》
据我所知，欧洲的每个邻国在历史上都曾相互仇恨过;大多数人仍然如此。这跟你是白人没关系。
美国喜剧演员喜欢开玩笑说“所有亚洲人都恨其他亚洲人”。所有欧洲人也是如此。在同一个社区生活几百年和几千年，总是会产生相互的敌意和仇恨。
Historical beefs
Religious & cultural differences
Political goals of the ruling class
Russia is hated by Western Europeans on all three ways:
The Cold War
Russian Orthodox Church has been beefing with the Latin West since the 12th century. Russian culture is also seen as backward and unsophisticated.
This is the big one: Russia is the only nation in Europe with the potential to challenge American hegemony. There can only be one big man in Europe, and the Americans have Hollywood, so they control how Western Europeans think.
In Hollywood there’s an acronym, RAV, it stands for: Russians, Arabs and Villains. If you see a Russian guy in a movie, he’s gonna look something like the guy pictured (John Malkovich in Rounders) : scary, balding, and wearing a tracksuit.
Actually, being white works against Russians because you can’t counter anti-Russian hate speech by calling it hate speech since it’s targeted against white people. According to Americans, white people can’t be the target of hate speech, because reasons.
有三个主要因素决定了两个欧洲群体之间的仇恨程度:
历史上的争吵
宗教和文化差异
统治阶级的政治目标
俄罗斯在以下三个方面都被西欧人憎恨:
冷战
自12世纪以来，俄罗斯东正教一直与拉丁西方国家争执不休。俄罗斯文化也被认为是落后和粗糙的
俄罗斯是欧洲唯一有潜力挑战美国霸权的国家。欧洲只能有一个大人物，而美国人有好莱坞，所以他们控制了西欧人的思维方式。这是一个大问题
在好莱坞有一个缩写词，RAV，它代表俄罗斯人，阿拉伯人和恶棍。如果你在电影里看到一个俄罗斯人，他会看起来像照片上的那个人(约翰·马尔科维奇在《圆梦者》中):令人害怕，秃顶，穿着运动服。
事实上，作为白人对俄罗斯人不利，因为你不能通过称之为仇恨言论来抨击反俄仇恨言论，因为它是针对白人的。根据美国人的说法，白人不能成为仇恨言论的目标，因为有原因。
There actually is an interesting geopolitical reasons for European conflicts as well, especially with France and the UK in particular
the basic defense paradigm for the UK has been defense via ocean barriers. The navy is to be prioritized, as well as any European mainland ports that provide a short and direct route to the British isles
France’s defensive paradigm is one similar to China and other contential powers, to expand their nation until they reach natural borders that hamper easy movement, being mountain ranges and rivers
As you may notice, port regions in Calais, Belgium, and the Netherlands intersect both French and UK geopolitical interests, which one of the key reasons why since the early modern period this region has been contested quite heavily between the two powers, and also why UK has ensured the independence and protection of Belgium and the Netherlands up to today(aka why they got into WW1 in the first place)
实际上，欧洲的冲突也有一个有趣的地缘政治原因，尤其是与法国和英国的冲突。
英国的基本防御模式是通过海洋屏障进行防御。优先考虑的是海军，以及任何欧洲大陆港口，这些港口提供了通往不列颠群岛的短而直接的路线
法国的防御模式与中国和其他有竞争力的大国类似，扩张自己的国家，直到他们到达阻碍轻易移动的自然边界，即山川。
正如你可能注意到的那样，比利时加莱和荷兰的港口地区与法国和英国的地缘政治利益交叉，这是自现代早期以来，这一地区在两个大国之间争夺相当激烈的关键原因之一。
We have it hard in Russia - we don’t have any good “natural” borders.
我们俄罗斯太难了，我们没有任何好的天然边界。
The Caucasus mountains seem like a natural border between Russia and the middle eastern powers of Turkey or Iran, where there was plenty of fighting with these great powers and with the indigenous powers for control
but other than that, I have heard in terms of Western European I’ve read about(and correct me if I’m wrong) is that indeed Russia doesn’t have as many natural borders, so the direct or indirect control of buffer states such as Poland becomes important, to provide as much distance between other great powers like Germany. You could apply the same theory to -Stan nations and the Asian powers, but from the Chinese side, xinjiang’s border with Kazakhstan and Russia can be quite mountainous, such as Kanas National Park
高加索山脉似乎是俄罗斯和土耳其或伊朗等中东大国之间的天然边界，在那里，俄罗斯与这些大国以及当地大国为争夺控制权发生了大量战斗。
但除此之外，我在西欧读到过(如果我错了，请纠正我)，俄罗斯确实没太多自然边界，所以直接或间接控制波兰等缓冲国变得很重要，以便在德国等其他大国之间提供尽可能多的距离。
你可以将同样的理论应用于斯坦国家和亚洲大国，但从中国的角度来看，新疆与哈萨克斯坦和俄罗斯的边界可能是相当多山的，比如喀纳斯国家公园。
People are tribal. In a world of finite resources there's gonna be friction.
It's not a white people thing. Asians, Africans, Arabs are all pretty good at killing each other too.
Hell, 12 months ago Putin was saying Ukrainians ARE Russians and now they're slaughtering them. The differences don't need to be as big as the shape of your nose.
Hollywood is still a tip tho.
人是部落性的。在一个资源有限的世界里必然会有摩擦。
这不是白人的事。亚洲人，非洲人，阿拉伯人也都很擅长自相残杀。
该死的，12个月前普京说乌克兰人是俄罗斯人，现在他们正在屠杀乌克兰人。差异不需要像鼻子的形状那么大。
不过，好莱坞是个好观点。
Racial hate based on colourism is basically a historically new thing that only began on a wide scale in the 1700–1800s.
基于肤色歧视的种族仇恨基本上是一种历史上的新事物，在18世纪至19世纪才大规模开始。
I’m not sure where this notion of racial unity comes from — certainly not from facts.
In 2016, in the United States:
Blacks. 90% of Black victims were murdered by other Blacks.
Whites. Likewise, 82% of White murder victims were killed by fellow Caucasians.
This means for a White person — the greatest threat comes not from someone of another race — but from a fellow White person.
From personal experience, as an adolescent, those in school who provoked me, taunted me, bullied me — which ultimately would reach a point where I was forced to fight back — were fellow White kids.
As an adolescent, I never once had a fight with someone from another race.
It was the White kids.
I was a late bloomer, plus many of the hardscrabble White kids from “the other side of the tracks” might have been left back a year or two — giving them an unfair advantage.
I had no choice but to go “crazy town” on them — perhaps not fighting fairly — but doing so resulted in my being considered not just crazy, but dangerous.
Eventually, I was left alone. If you had asked me about White unity when I was trying to survive as an adolescent, I would have been completely bewildered. There is no such thing.
我不确定这种种族团结的观念从何而来，它显然不是事实。
2016年，在美国:
黑人——90%的黑人命案受害者都是被其他黑人杀害的。
白人——同样，82%的白人命案受害者都是被白人杀害的。链接略
这意味着对白人来说，最大的威胁不是来自其他种族的人，而是来自白人同胞。
从个人经验来看，作为一个青少年，那些在学校里挑衅我，嘲弄我，欺负我的人——最终会达到我被迫反击地步的，都是白人孩子。
作为一个青少年，我从来没有和其他种族的人打过架，都是跟白人孩子。
我是一个发育晚的人，加上许多来自“轨道另一边”的贫穷的白人孩子可能会落后一两年，这给了他们不公平的优势。我别无选择，只能对他们“疯狂”——也许不是公平地战斗——但这样做的结果是，我不仅被认为是疯狂的，而且是危险的。最后，只剩下我一个人。
如果你在我青春期努力生存的时候问我“白人团结”的问题，我会完全不知所措。没有这回事。