网友讨论：伊朗正在建造的无人机航母
Iran’s IRGC drone carriers under construction [940x450]
译文简介
更像是一战到二战早期由民用、商用船只改装而成的航母，比如美国的兰利号、隼鹰号等。
正文翻译
Vast_Republic_1776
Iran has developed a carrier for the sole purpose of launching drones. Personal opinion: it appears they’ve taken a John Lewis class oiler and slapped a flight deck on it.
伊朗开发了一艘航母，其唯一目的是发射无人机。个人观点：他们似乎拿着一艘约翰·刘易斯级加油船，然后啪的一下放了个飞行甲板在上面。
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Glorious days of ww2
想起了二战的光辉岁月
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Literally what I was thinking. We really getting into the interwar period cruiser converted carriers again but with drones. Kinda cool. Maybe we'll see a rendition of the akagi 3 flight deck version
和我想的一样。我又想起了两次世界大战期间巡洋舰改装成航母。这有点酷。也许我们能看到赤城号航母3飞行甲板版本的表现。
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More like WWI - early ww2 era of unoptimal CVs converted from civilian and merchant vessels i.e USS Langley, Junyou/Hiyou etc.
更像是一战到二战早期由民用、商用船只改装而成的航母，比如美国的兰利号、隼鹰号等。
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Lol I'm glad I'm not the only one that had the same reaction
哈哈，很高兴我不是唯一有这种想法的人。
The British did similar with the Atlantic Conveyor during the Falklands War in 1982.
1982年马岛战争期间，英国也用大西洋运送者号这么做过。
The Iranian government owns a couple shipyards who primarily produces ships for the petroleum industry, so yeah, it's probably a modified oil tanker design.
伊朗政府拥有几家造船厂，主要为石油工业生产船只，所以这可能是用油轮改装的。
I imagine it could still be dangerous if used right, then again that might be a big if
我认为如果它使用得当，还是有危险性的，当然这是一个很大的如果。
Surely this thing is going to be slow, loud, and poorly defended in terms of support ships. Got to imagine at least one country would be tailing it with a sub if it were expected to do something.
毫无疑问，就支援舰艇而言，这东西的速度慢、声音大而且防御不行。想象一下，如果它要做点什么，至少有一个国家会用潜艇跟踪它。
I’m thinking one torpedo or one cruise missile or a few bombs we’ll have that thing sitting on the bottom the first day it poses a threat to…anybody.
我在想，在它对任何人构成威胁的第一天，我们就会用一枚鱼雷，一枚巡航导弹或者几枚炸弹把它送进海底。
Shaheeds may work vs apartment complexes, but those dont have, you know, a VLS full of AA missiles and CIWS as back up
伊朗的见证者无人机也许可以对付公寓大楼，但你知道的，这些无人机没有空空导弹和防御系统。
On the flip side, few civilian buildings and cargo ships have a CIWS and SAMs. Nor is it practical to equip every such asset with them.
但反过来说，很少有民用建筑和货船会有近程防御系统和防空导弹。为它们配备这些武器也不现实。
AA missiles that cost probably about 10x the price of the drones and will leave the ship vulnerable to bigger and harder hitting missiles once they've all been expended
空空导弹的价格可能是无人机的十倍，一旦全部耗尽，这艘船将很容易受到更大、更危险的导弹的攻击。
Refit an old tanker that is too small to be economically efficient, win-win.
改装一艘因为太小而经济效益不高的油轮，双赢。
AFAIK this drone carrier is based on previous designs for the Iranian navy's support ships. Which in turn do look like they are based on tankers.
据我所知，这艘无人机航母是基于伊朗海军之前的支援舰设计。看起来确实像是基于油轮。
So we’re basically back to the 1920s-type naval innovation?
所以我们回到了1920年代式的海军创新？
Well Iran is at the very least.
嗯，至少伊朗是这样的。
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Huge battleships with railguns when? I want to see the 21th century version of super dreadnoughts.
那装备轨道炮的巨型战列舰什么时候有？我想看看21世纪版本的超级无畏舰。
Battleship arms races are more fun than nuclear arms races
战列舰的军备竞赛比核军备竞赛有趣多了
But think about the possibility of nuclear battleship arms races.
但想想核战列舰军备竞赛的可能性。
Zepplins. We need more Zepplins.
齐柏林飞艇。我们需要更多的齐柏林飞艇。
don't even talk to me if you don't want to see rail gun armed battleships duking it out with .1kt nuclear warheads
如果你不想看到装备轨道炮的战列舰用1kt的核弹头对决，那就别跟我说话。
Only a space battleship Yamato will satisfy me.
只有宇宙战舰大和号才能让我满意。
Gonna be extremely, EXTREMELY costly to even jumpstart a battleship/battlecruiser "big gun" focused race, and all indicates it wouldn't be sustainable.
Following the idea of big guns railguns is hazardous, the Zumwalts were basically economically bottled because of it and we aren't even accounting for the "back to the armor" problem...
Entertaining the idea of modern day battleships is very, very stimulating and fun tho!
启动一场战列舰或战列巡洋舰式的“巨舰大炮” 竞赛是非常非常昂贵的，而且所有迹象都表明这是不可持续的。
遵循巨舰大炮的理念是危险的，朱姆沃尔特基本上是经济的无底洞，而我们甚至还没有考虑“重新安装装甲”的问题……
但聊聊现代战列舰的理念非常非常有意思！
Eh? The Zumwalts were bottled because they only thing they did really well was attack land; they had significant problems with operating in non-permissive environments.
They were designed to bully countries that couldn't fight back, but China modernized much quicker than anticipated, which is why the class got truncated at 3. And only having hulls, instead of 30, is what caused the big expense for the guns, not the guns themselves.
嗯？朱姆沃尔特之所以被取消，是因为它们唯一擅长的就是对地攻击。它们在非许可的环境中有着重大问题。
它们被设计来欺负那些无法反击的国家，但中国的现代化速度比预期的要快得多，这就是它只有3艘而不是30艘的原因，这也是造成它的炮昂贵的原因，而不是炮本身贵。
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Goddamn I knew there'd be a ship like that eventually but I didn't expect Iran to be the one to pop the cherry on the idea.
该死的，我知道最终会有一艘这样的船，但我没想到首个实施的会是伊朗。
If hypothetically another country also had an aircraft carrier with several aircraft whose purpose was electronic warfare, I think the idea of a drone carrier would become a little less interesting
如果假设另一个国家也有一艘带着几架电子战飞机的航母，我认为无人机航母的想法就会变得不那么有趣了。
laughs in Growler
坐在咆哮者里微微一笑
Oh you mean the aircraft that has a kill against the f-22 in training?
你说的是唯一在训练中击杀过F-22的飞机？
well you also can’t take that at face value because most trainings have notoriously “nerfed” 5th gen abilities or put them severely outnumbered to practice technique versus realism.
你也不能单从结果来看啊，因为大多数训练都“削弱”五代机的能力，或者让它们的数量处于压倒性的劣势。
Feels like how submarines get kills on carriers during exercises. Several rules that don’t allow the fleet to go ham on submarine detection.
感觉就像潜艇在演习中击杀航母一样。有一些规则不允许舰队干扰潜艇的探测。
If something that sci-fi was possible, I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.
如果有这种科幻的东西，我相信我们现在已经听说了。
I’m theorizing, but I think military grade jammers would wreak havoc on these drone’s chance of accomplishing anything.
我是在推理，但我认为军用的干扰机会破坏这些无人机完成任务的机会。
Sry, it was an /s comment about the idea that one nation might have ships with planes that fly on and off it whose whole purpose is EW.
I can't drive past CIA HQ and have my cell phone work, so I'm pretty sure the USN can radiospectrum jam anything Iran can float or fly
这是在评论一个国家可能专门带着电子战飞机的舰艇的想法。
比如我开车经过CIA总部的时候，我的手机都没法用。所以我很确定美国海军可以干扰伊朗的所有舰艇或飞机。
Not if they are autonomous/preprogrammed.
如果它们是自主的或预编程的就干扰不了。
Is this true tho? Even being autonomous these drones will still need to be able to use their sensors. If they’re optical sensors they’re probably fine, but any radar small enough to fit on a drone would get jammed.
Then with optical sensors they’ll have to get extremely close to surface ships to do any damage. I guess that’s okay if they’re suicide drones.
然而是这样吗？即使是自主的，这些无人机仍然需要能够使用它们的传感器。如果是光学传感器，那可能没问题，但任何小到可以安装在无人机上的雷达都会被干扰。
然后，要使用光学传感器，它们必须非常接近水面舰艇才能造成损害。除非是自杀式无人机。
Preprogrammed drones can be used against static targets on land like military bases or infrastructure, act as anti-radiation missiles and take down jammers, gather signal or visual intelligence, or carry their own jammers against enemy targets.
预编程的无人机可用于对付军事基地或基础设施等陆地上的静态目标，充当反辐射导弹、击落干扰机，收集信号或视频情报，或携带自己的干扰机对付敌方目标。
Yeah I was thinking more about the anti ship role. I don’t think they’d have much of a use there. Can’t do any targeting except anti-radiation or optically. Don’t think it’d work too well. Maybe against local rivals but not against any great power.
是的，我考虑的更多是反舰作用。我觉得它们在这方面没什么用。除了反辐射和光学跟踪，无法进行任何瞄准。我不认为它能起什么作用。也许在对抗当地的对手时有效，但对抗大国时不行。
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AFAIK Ukrainians used Bayraktar drones successfully against Russian ships even though Russia has jammers. Jammers are useful, but they can’t jam everything, everywhere at all times. Bayraktar has anti-electronic warfare equipment, auto-return to base functionality, and can do some missions fully autonomously. In the next ten years Iran can probably build similar things with Chinese help.
据我所知，乌克兰人成功使用Bayraktar无人机对付俄罗斯舰艇，哪怕俄罗斯有干扰机。干扰机很有用，但它们不能在任何时候、任何地方干扰所有东西。Bayraktar无人机拥有反电子战设备，自动返回基地功能，可以完全自主地执行一些任务。接下来的十年里，在中国的帮助下，伊朗可能会制造类似的东西。
A large part of that is that Russia's capabilities have proven to be less than advertised. That said, I think the only successful Bayraktar strikes against shipping have been on Raptor class patrol boats, who were not operating under an EW umbrella.
很大一部分原因是俄罗斯的能力已被证明不如宣传的那么强大。话虽如此，我认为Bayraktar对舰艇唯一成功的打击是对猛禽级巡逻艇，这些巡逻艇是在没有电子战的保护伞下行动的。
The idea of a drone carrier makes fantastic sense!
For the US Navy. The only navy that's already implemented or working on all of the significant advancements in sensor fusion and networked warfare.
无人机航母的想法非常有意义!
美国海军是唯一一个已经在传感器融合和网络战争方面取得重大进展的海军。
People are missing the point of this ship.
It's not being built to defend Iran, it's being built to camp in international waters near Yamen (or whatnot) and provide the Iran-backed faction with air support.
Basically what the US does with it's carrier groups, but at a fraction of the cost.
大家忽视了这艘船的重点。
它不是造来保护伊朗的，而是为了在也门（或之类的地方）附近的国际水域巡视，并为伊朗支持的派系提供空中支援。
基本上就是美国航母战斗群的做法，但成本只是美国的一小部分。
A fraction of the cost, and the capability
是成本和能力的一小部分。
Doesn't matter if they don't need the same capability as a Nimitz or Ford
如果他们不需要尼米兹或福特那样的能力，那就没问题。
If you are fighting a US carrier group or even just a couple of burkes there isn’t much you can do to stay afloat regardless of your design.
如果面对的是美国航母战斗群，甚至只是几艘伯克级，那么无论它的设计如何，都无法保持漂浮状态。
Unless the Burke steers into its path and gets rammed because the bridge crew fell asleep.
除非伯克驶入它的航道，然后因为伯克舰桥上的船员睡着而被撞。
I hope that was a wake-up call for the USN. Outside of the carriers, maritime patrol, and submarines, they get my vote for most incompetent and most corrupt branch.
我希望这能给美国海军敲响警钟。在航母、海上巡逻队和潜艇之外，他们是我认为最无能、最腐败的军种。
The only substantive change I saw in the surface fleet was I got the fuck out lol
我在水面舰队看到的唯一实质性变化，我他妈的离开了，哈哈哈
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They will be cheap to produce
它们生产起来会很便宜
And many factors cheaper to sink
而很多因素让它击沉起来更容易
I think the idea is to fire their entire drone payload as an attack, which costs much more in missiles to shoot down if the drone battery is well enough set up. They look like oilers so they'll probably be successful in launching since you can't go around sinking every single oiler you come across pre-emptively. It may actually not be cheaper to sink them as a result.
我认为他们的想法是发射所有无人机的导弹，如果无人机导弹够多，则击落导弹的成本要高得多。它们看起来像加油船，所以它们很可能会成功发射，因为你不可能先发制人地击沉每一艘你遇到的加油船。因此，击沉它们实际上可能并不便宜。
Satellite and surveillance intelligence won’t have a hard time tracking these. They will be among the easiest ships to keep tabs on. Anti-ship missiles will have a field day
卫星和监视情报部门跟踪它们不会很难。它们将是最容易监视的船只。反舰导弹将大显身手。
I mean yeah the drones are cheaper, but even they successfully launch all of their drones they'll still be immediately sunk. Building new drone carriers will def be more expensive. Not to mention that drones aren't exactly hard targets for modern surface combatants. I promise you there will be no issue identifying one of these from distance.
是的，无人机更便宜，但即使它们成功发射了所有的无人机，它们还是会立即被击沉。建造新的无人机航母将更加昂贵。更不用说无人机并不是现代水面作战的硬目标。我向你保证，从远处识别其中一艘是没有问题的。
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People "mocking" this ship clearly don't understand it's purpose. I don't judge the build quality (only a few people can) but thinking that nowadays a drone carrier is not useful means you learned nothing from the Ukraine war. I know it's sad but drones are the future (and the present) of aviation. Exploring the building know how of this new kind of ships it's an investment for the future. Even if maybe this particular ship will suck they will learn valuable lessons from building it
“嘲笑”这艘船的人显然不明白它的目的。我不评判它的建造质量(只有少数人可以)，但认为如今的无人机航母没用意味着你没有从乌克兰战争中学到任何东西。我知道这很悲哀，但无人机是航空的未来（也是现在）。探索这种新型舰艇的建造技术是对未来的投资。即使这艘船可能会很糟糕，但他们也能从建造中吸取宝贵的教训。
Drones are gonna be part of the future no doubt, but one of the main advantages of cheap drones are their ability to be used anywhere and on the fly. Launching them all on a slow easily targeted platform in one of the most crowded shipping channels in the world is probably gonna mitigate any advantages the drones could bring.
无人机确实是未来的一部分，但廉价无人机的主要优势之一是它们能够在任何地方使用。在世界上最拥挤的航道之一，在一艘缓慢、容易瞄准的平台上发射它们，可能会削弱无人机可能带来的所有优势。
That won't save them, but greater powers are probably taking notes.
这救不了他们，但更强大的国家可能正在关注。
It's to project over weaker states, not to take on a superpower. They're not dumb, they don't think this thing would stand a chance against someone who can shoot back- but they don't need it to.
这是用来对付弱国的，不是用来对付超级大国。他们不傻，不认为这东西有机会对抗那些可以反击的国家，他们也不需要它去这么做。
Weird idea to use a converted Tanker
用油轮来改装，奇怪的想法
It’s not unprecedented, the US navy did it with the Lewis B Puller class.
这并不是史无前例的，美国海军在刘易斯级上做过。
Still weird, how is it worth it
还是很奇怪，值得吗
Iran has prioritized developing asymmetrical weapons in an effort to achieve some level of area denial capability. This is meant to force the US out of the Persian gulf in the event of a conflict. Such a drone carrier effectively acts as a single use weapon capable of posing a threat to US strike groups. A large number of cheap drones will force US escort ships to expend air defense weapons at an alarming rate and potentially force them to withdraw due to lack of munitions. Effectively achieving a mission kill. So such a drone carrier provides a credible threat to a US fleet even into the Indian Ocean. While it likely would not be survivable in the long term it could complicate planning in the opening stages of a war and thus is a credible deterrent. That or it allows them to launch hundreds of suicide drones at Yemen.
伊朗优先发展非对称武器，以实现一定程度的区域拒止能力。这是为了在发生冲突时迫使美国离开波斯湾。这种无人机航母实际上是一种一次性武器，能够对美国的打击集群构成威胁。大量廉价无人机将迫使美国护航舰艇以惊人的速度消耗防空武器，并可能迫使其因缺乏弹药而撤退。有效完成任务。因此，这种无人机航母对进入印度洋的美国舰队构成了可信的威胁。虽然从长期来看，它可能无法生存，但它可能会使战争开始阶段的计划复杂化，因此是一种可信的威慑力量。这让他们可以向也门发射数百架自杀式无人机。
How good are Iran’s ASW capabilities? I’d assume any major USN operation in the gulf would be preceded by subs sinking any significant Iranian surface assets.
伊朗的反潜能力如何？我认为美国海军在海湾地区进行任何重大行动之前，潜艇都会击沉伊朗所有重要的水面装备。
They don’t need them. The Persian Gulf is so shallow and the water is so transparent that you can practically see a submarine sitting on the bottom from the air. US submarines’ involvement in any naval conflict will likely be limited to cruise missile strikes from the Arabian Sea, and their traditional absence from the Gulf and complete lack of participation in Operation Praying Mantis sets a precedence for even more limited involvement.
他们不需要反潜能力。波斯湾很浅，水很透明，你几乎可以从空中看到潜在水底的潜艇。美国潜艇在所有海军冲突中的参与可能仅限于在阿拉伯海发射巡航导弹，它们基本上不出现在海湾地区，而且完全不参与螳螂行动，这为更有限的参与奠定了优先地位。
It will be interesting how that thing handles waves and how stable that add on to the flight deck is. I wonder if they'll even have space for Elevator of some kind.
看它如何应对海浪，以及处理飞行甲板上的稳定性，会很有趣。我想知道他们有没有空间安装电梯？
It's a repurposed oil tanker. It'll be fine at sea.
It doesn't need an elevator. You haul the drone out of the hold, move it to the 'Flight Deck', and launch.
这是一艘改装的油轮。在海上航行还是没问题的。
它不需要电梯，直接把无人机拖出货舱，移到“飞行甲板”，然后发射。
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The Modern CVE.
I can respect the attempt to do something new with less money, but it seems like an attempt to use suicide drones from a suicide ship?
现代的护航航母。
我可以尊重用更少的钱做一些新事情的尝试，但这似乎是试图在自杀船上使用自杀无人机？
Yep. It's a very annoying and effective tactic.
If you have a practically limitless supply of drones, and a good number of clapped-out old tankers, you can throw them at the enemy in devastating numbers.
Even if they are largely impossible to defend, a few of these in critical waterways act as a 'Fleet in Being' that can change your enemy's calculus in your favour.
And it's very, very cheap.
是的。这是一种非常烦人且有效的策略。
如果你有几乎无限的无人机，以及大量老旧的油轮，你可以用惊人的数量扔向你的敌人。
虽然它们在很大程度上是没有防御的，但在关键水道中放一些充当“存在舰队”， 可以改变敌人的盘算，使其对你有利。而且非常非常便宜。
Interesting move to build drone carriers right now. Does Iran want to project more military power? Could they reasonably do that with only drones and not an established naval air wing? Where could Iran use this kind of ship without it getting nailed by a more powerful navy or airforce?
This comes off as an early prototype to start testing the viability of the platform rather than a ship made for serious deployment. We'll clearly see drones and drone ships emerge in the coming decades as they've been incredibly powerful in the US occupations, Ukraine-Russian War, and both Armenia-Azerbaijan Wars. And Iran probably wants to capitalize on their drones since they've seen some success. But we've also seen that drones can't operate if the air space is contested.
Iran's navy is designed to control its territorial waters rather than project power internationally. They couldn't protect a drone ship right now against any of their contemporary adversaries. But future advancement in drones could maybe allow for them to operate against fighter craft. Maybe. So it's atleast a decent idea to start developing the ships that would be needed to field them in large numbers for a conflict.
现在建造无人机航母的行动很有趣。伊朗是否想要投射更多的军事力量？他们能只靠无人机而不是用现有的海军航空联队做到吗？伊朗可以在哪里使用这种船，而不被更强大的海军或空军抓住？
这是一个开始测试平台可行性的早期原型，而不是为认真部署而制造的船。我们将清楚地看到，无人机和无人机航母在未来几十年中出现，因为它们在美国侵略、俄乌战争和亚美尼亚-阿塞拜疆战争中都发挥了惊人的威力。伊朗可能希望利用他们的无人机，因为他们已经取到了一些成功。但我们也看到，如果空域存在争夺，无人机就无法行动。
伊朗海军的目的是控制其领海，而不是在国际上投射力量。他们现在无法保护一艘无人机航母免受当代对手的攻击。但未来无人机的发展也许能让它们对抗战斗机。也许吧。因此，开始研发需要大量部署以应对冲突的这种船至少是一个不错的想法。
I'm interested to see the future of drone carriers. This might look ad-hoc but the Turkish Navy has a Juan Carlos I class Amphibious assault ship that they are converting to a drone ship and it cold be a way smaller navies can exert power without buying a AV-8B or F-35. If it succeeds I can see navies such as thailand that has a carrier buy some drones so they can gain some offensive power back after their fixed wing was retired decades ago
我很想看看无人机航母的未来。这看起来可能是试验性的，但土耳其海军有一艘胡安·卡洛斯I级两栖攻击舰，他们正在将其改装为无人机航母，这很可能是较小国家的海军在不购买AV-8B或F-35的情况下发挥力量的方式。如果成功，我可以看到像泰国这样拥有航母的海军购买一些无人机，这样他们就可以在固定翼飞机退役后获得一些进攻力量。
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This is a commercial vessel, probably an oil tanker, that is being converted. I'm guessing from the pictures it's about 200m long, 30m beam, maybe 30-40 thousand tonnes.
The 'flight deck' is about 100m long, and 20m wide.
Stuff that full of drones and you have a slow platform (20kts max) that could launch and sustain a devastating drone mission for as long as it takes for someone to sink it.
Even if the ship is double-bottomed and reasonably compartmented modern anti-ship weapons like torpedoes, missiles, or bombs will sink a it with little trouble. The size means you may need a surprising amount of ordnance to destroy it, but a single hit would be a mission kill.
Based on experience from the Falklands War, you can convert a merchantman into an ersatz 'carrier' in a matter of weeks (Atlantic Conveyor was converted to a carrier in 10 days). If you have a lot of them available, and practically limitless drones, you could cause a lot of headaches for your enemy.
Cheap, small, smart, expendable weapons are the future.
这是一艘商船，可能是一艘油轮，正在被改装。从图片上看，我猜它有200米长，船梁30米，可能有3-4万吨。
“飞行甲板”大约100米长，20米宽。
装满了无人机，船的速度就慢(最大20节)，可以发射并维持一场毁灭性的无人机任务，直到有人击沉它。
即使这艘船是双层底的，并且有合理的分隔，现代反舰武器，如鱼雷、导弹或炸弹，也能毫不费力地击沉它。它的大小意味着你可能需要很多的弹药来摧毁它，但一次命中就意味着它无法执行任务了。
根据马岛战争的经验，你可以在几周内将一艘商船改装成一艘“航母”（大西洋运送者号在10天内改装成航母）。如果你有很多这样的船，而且几乎无限的无人机，你可以让你的敌人很头痛。
廉价、小巧、智能、可消耗的武器是未来的趋势。