为什么德意志帝国的成立是在凡尔赛举行的？如果在后来成为现代德国一部分的某地举行，不是更有意义吗？
Why was the proclamation of the German Empire held at Versailles? Wouldn''t it have made more sense if it was held somewhere in what would become part of modern day Germany?
译文简介
要理解这一点，必须追溯到几个世纪前。
正文翻译
Why was the proclamation of the German Empire held at Versailles? Wouldn't it have made more sense if it was held somewhere in what would become part of modern day Germany?
为什么德意志帝国的成立仪式是在凡尔赛举行的？如果在后来成为现代德国一部分的某地举行，不是更有意义吗？
评论翻译
很赞 ( 2 )
收藏
Amateur military historian and fiction writer
To understand that, one has to go a couple centuries back.
This might seem far fetched looking at the power dynamic between Germany and France in and after 1871, but until that point, Germany and Germans had been living in, proverbially speaking, mortal fear of France. France was the continent’s greatest military power, and one with a long and proud history of expansionism into Germany.
French armies rampaged western Germany in the cataclysmic Thirty Years’ War, which in total saw more German dead, not just in percentages but in absolute numbers, than the Second World War. French expansionism crept slowly into Germany over the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
The decisive blow was Napoleon: who gobbled up Rhineland and northwestern Germany directly into France, chained to his will as puppets half of Germany in form of the so-called Confederation of the Rhine, and enforced on Prussia a more draconian peace than had been seen in Europe for a long time(and indeed, much more so than the peace that the Coalition would eventually force on him). Unlike the earlier events, left over from an era where nationalism was hardly the strongest of forces and German national identity deeply flawed, the years of Napoleonic domination left deep scars in German national conscious, kickstarted the German desire for national unity, and gave rise to a true Franco-German enmity.
Germany had been Europe’s battleground and zone of territorial expansion for centuries. And Germans were fed up with the misery that existence brought.
When Bismarck’s Prussia fell upon the Danes, beat back the Austrians, and pummeled the French to the ground, the proclamation of King Wilhelm I of Prussia as the German Emperor, in the very palace of the legendary Sun King, was intended to convey one message, to France in particular, but to the world in general. Two words issued by a nation that refused to remain as Europe’s stomping ground.
No more.
要理解这一点，必须追溯到几个世纪前。
从 1871 年和之后的德国和法国之间的权力动态来看，这似乎有些牵强，但在此之前，德国和德国人确实一直生活在众所周知的对法国的致命恐惧中。法国是欧洲大陆最强大的军事强国，并且有着悠久而自豪的向德国扩张的历史。
在灾难般的三十年战争中，法国军队在德国西部横冲直撞，在这场战争中，德国人的死亡人数不仅在百分比上，而且在绝对数字上，都超过了第二次世界大战。在17和18世纪，法国的扩张主义缓慢地进入德国。
决定性的一击是拿破仑：他把莱茵地区和德国西北部直接吞并到法国，以所谓的莱茵河联盟的形式把一半的德国拴在他的意志下作为傀儡，并对普鲁士实施了欧洲历史上罕见的严厉的和平（事实上，比后来盟军强加给他的和平要严厉得多）。与先前的事件不同，那个时期的民族主义很难成为最强大的力量，德国的民族认同感也有很大的缺陷，拿破仑统治时期在德国的民族意识中留下了深深的伤痕，启动了德国人对国家统一的渴望，并引起了真正的法德之争。
几个世纪以来，德国一直是欧洲的战场和领土扩张区。而德国人已经厌倦了这种存在带来的痛苦。
当俾斯麦的普鲁士击败丹麦人，打退奥地利人，并将法国人打倒在地时，普鲁士国王威廉一世在传说中的太阳王的宫殿里宣布成为德国皇帝，是为了向法国，也是向整个世界传达一个信息。这两个词是由一个拒绝继续作为欧洲垫脚石的国家发出的。
“到此为止。”
I quite like this answer. And also, I quite like the famous painting you have chosen to illustrate it, by Von Werner. You’ll notice how the Kaiser, at the top of the steps, is not really the center of it, but how Bismark, centered and in a starkly-constrasting white uniform, is highlighted…
我很喜欢这个答案。而且，我也很喜欢你选择的那幅由冯-维尔纳创作的名画。你会注意到，在台阶顶端的德皇并不是真正的中心，而居中的俾斯麦却穿着鲜明的白色制服，被突出显示出来。
“No more.”
It didn’t really work, though, did it?
“到此为止。”
不过，这并没有真正发挥作用，不是吗？
Turns out, when the proverbial kicking toy of the continent rises out of that, everyone else is really terrified of what might happen- and quite determined to return to the way things were.
事实证明，从此，那个大陆的垫脚石从那里开始崛起，其他人真的很害怕可能发生的事情--并且相当坚定地要恢复到事情之前的样子。
My go-to analogy every time this is brought up is the Mexican army marching over NYC.
每次提到这个问题时，我最喜欢的比喻是墨西哥军队向纽约市进军。
LOL! In your dreams.
哈哈哈哈！做梦吧你。
Careful.
That was what the French told themselves too.
小心点。
法国人也是这么对自己说的。
Your country is literally controlled by cartels, defeat them first before you talk about invading America
你的国家实际上是由卡特尔控制的，在你谈论入侵美国之前，先打败他们。
Indeed, Napoleon the 1st turned out to be one , if not the foremost, of the unifiers of Germany.
Unser his rule, 90% of the German principalities disappeared, and, as Cem points out, the latent German desire for unity gathered strength.
Those facts are absolutely not understood in France, where few aknowledge the constant French agressions, from the end of the sixteenth century, end the acquistions of parts of Lorraine, to Napoleon.
事实上，拿破仑一世即使不是最重要的，至少也算是德国的统一者之一。
在他的统治下，90%的德国公国都消失了，而且，正如塞姆指出的那样，德国人对统一的潜在渴望得到了加强。
这些事实在法国是绝对不被理解的，在那里，很少有人知道法国从十六世纪末到拿破仑时期对洛林部分地区的不断侵略。
History resists simplicity. But the allure of victimhood is as old as the Christian messiah and Caesar's conquest.
历史没那么简单。但是，打受害者牌的诱惑力与基督教的弥赛亚和凯撒的征服一样古老。
Cem is not anti-French. He is not pro-German either. He is simply one of the few people out here in Quora who try to be halfway obxtive with Germany and the Germans and does not think in the well-known stereotypes. His comments are usually well-founded and fact-based. As concerns this very comment: The other powers which ravaged Germany in the thirty-years-war, like Sweden, simply weren’t existant any more as a competition or a threat. At that time, and since centuries before, France was the closest and most powerful menace to Germany.
卡姆并不反法。他也不是亲德国人士。他只是一个在Quora中为数不多的试图对德国和德国人持更客观态度的人之一，并不以众所周知的刻板印象来思考问题。他的评论通常是有根有据的，以事实为依据。就像这个评论一样。在三十年战争中蹂躏德国的其他大国，如瑞典，根本不存在任何竞争或威胁。在当时，以及自几个世纪以前，法国都是对德国最近和最强大的威胁。
Very well put, I’m impressed by your knowledge of the matter, as well your unique insight.
说得很好，我对你的知识以及你独特的洞察力印象深刻。
To be fair the losses Germany endured in the Second World War were felt more as they occurred over a much shorter amount of time. But other than that good answer.
公平地说，德国在第二次世界大战中遭受的损失更多，因为它们是在更短的时间内造成的。但除此之外，这个答案不错。
My German friend said that Napoleon was instrumental in making German unification possible by lumping hundreds of little German principalities into a few relatively big nations.
我的德国朋友说，拿破仑将数百个德国小公国归入几个相对较大的国家，对德国的统一起到了重要作用。
I'm beginning to think you're fundamentally anti-French.
I do not deny the ravages that the French wreaked on the territory of present-day Germany but, to be honest, there was very little of it during the Thirty Years' War, first of all because we were allied with some German princes and we should not be confused with the Swedes,
On the other hand, there were many more under Louis XIV and Turenne's exactions in the Palatinate, and of course under Napoleon, but especially vis-à-vis Prussia, other German states being then allied to France, precisely for fear of the warmongers in Berlin.
But you are not mentioning the whole history of France's relations with the Habsburg Empire, which since Charles V had not stopped reducing France. So much for going back in time, study a little seriously what the Holy Empire was for a long time for Europe.
我开始觉得你从根本上是一个反法人士。
我不否认法国人曾在现今德国领土上的蹂躏过，但说实话，在三十年战争期间，这种情况很少，首先是因为我们与一些德国境内的小国结盟，我们不应该被与瑞典人混淆。
另一方面，在路易十四时期和蒂朗手下确实对普法尔茨进行过洗劫，当然在拿破仑时期也有过，但更绝的是普鲁士，德国境内的其他国家当时之所以与法国结盟，正是因为害怕柏林的战争贩子。
而且你没有提到法国与哈布斯堡帝国关系的整个历史，自查理五世以来，哈布斯堡帝国就没有停止过对法国的削弱。这么说吧，回到过去，认真研究一下神圣帝国在很长一段时间内对欧洲来说是什么。
Richelieu paid for different armies to fight the Habsburg in Germany, and then sent French armies after 1635 when he started running out of allies. To be fair, the French armies were not worse than the others, but the French involvement lengthened the war by maybe ten years, and thus the miseries of the civilians.
黎塞留花钱买了不同的军队在德国与哈布斯堡作战，1635年后当他开始没有盟友的时候又派了法国军队出征。公平地说，法国军队并不比其他军队做得更糟，但法国人的参与使战争延长了大约十年，因此也使平民的痛苦增加。
Thank you. There is nothing to add.
Fun fact 1: The reparations that France had to pay to Germany in 1871 was exactly the amount per inhabitant that Prussia had to pay to France in 1806. The signal was clear: don't attack us anymore, we are back.
Fun fact 2: The success and rise of Prussia is largely due to French Huguenots. In 1806, almost a third of all Berliners and Potsdamers had French surnames and spoke French. There were French churches, schools, cultural associations. After the occupation of Prussia by French troops, many of these institutions dissolved, the "French" changed their surnames.
谢谢你。没有什么可补充的了。
有趣的事实1：法国在1871年必须向德国支付的赔款正好是普鲁士在1806年必须向法国支付的每个居民的金额。这个信号很明确：不要再攻击我们了，我们回来了。
有趣的事实2：普鲁士的成功和崛起主要归功于法国胡格诺派。1806年，几乎三分之一的柏林人和波茨坦人都用法国姓氏，讲法语。那里有法国的教堂、学校、文化协会。法国军队占领普鲁士后，这些机构中的许多都解散了，"法国人"改了姓。
Don't forget the french restaurants on Savignyplatz.
不要忘记萨维尼广场上的法国餐馆。
This may be, but it did not quiet work out the way they imagined in 1871. Just 43 years later they would fight France again, and much of the German Empire was lost. In less than 100 years after yet another war involving France, Great Britain, and Russia (the Soviet unx) Germany would lose almost all of Prussia and be split into two states.
可能是像你说的，但事情并没有像他们在1871年想象的那样平静地发展。仅仅43年后，他们将再次与法国交战，德意志帝国的大部分地区被夺走。在不到100年的时间里，经过又一次涉及法国、英国和俄罗斯（苏联）的战争，德国将失去几乎整个普鲁士，并被分裂成两个国家。
Well, the German statement wasn’t so much “No more” as “Now it’s everyone else’s turn”.
好吧，德国人的声明与其说是"到此为止"了，不如说是"现在轮到其他人了"。
“No more”
*Rest of Europe starts laughing*
"到此为止"
*欧洲其他国家开始大笑*。
So, Germany was Europe's Congo.
所以，德国是欧洲的刚果。
just for the precision, the 30 years warwas started as a german civil war, and saw different external participants (denmark, sweden, an done should not forget spain in support of the emperor). The french were actively involved only in the last third.
为了准确起见，30年战争是作为德国内战开始的，并且有不同的外部参与者（丹麦、瑞典，以及不应该忘记支持皇帝的西班牙）。法国人只在最后三分之一的时间里积极参与。
Aside from the glory of the Palace of Versailles, the main reason for its choosing to be the site of the proclamation of the German Empire was to send a loud and clear message.
For most of modern history, certainly since 1871, the Franco-German relationship has been one of an intimidating Germany threatening and looming over a weaker France. In recent years the relationship has ceased to be hostile, but economically Germany is still by far the greater power.
What you need to understand is that this has not always been true.
In fact for most of history it had been quite the opposite.
Ever since Charlemagne, Germany had lived in at least slight fear of the French state. It was for centuries the titan of Europe and, especially from the 15th century onward, repeatedly advanced further and further into the lands of the Holy Roman Empire into lands that then would have been considered German.
And thus already by the 19th century, the Kingdom of Prussia (which would later unite Germany) was in a state of acute fear of France.
And then things only got worse when this guy happened:
Under the rule of Napoleon Bonaparte France achieved a state of military hegemony over Western and Central Europe. Overshadowed by the glory of such campaigns as the Peninsula War, the Napoleonic invasion of Russia and the defeat of the Hapsburg Austrian Empire, people often forget the part that Prussia played in the Napoleonic Wars.
Although, at Waterloo, the Prussians certainly did get a taste of vengeance, by and large the Napoleonic Era was horrifically humiliating for Prussia.
It saw Prussia itself defeated and brutally maimed as vast swathes of its territory were confiscated and it saw over a decade of French domination of much of German politics.
By 1812, as you can see above, massive sections of Germany had been annexed by France the rest subjugated with the Kingdom of Prussia itself, while technically independent, clearly subject to the French throne.
By 1870, this was still very much in memory.
Not only had it not actually been all that long, 50 years is short enough that many alive would have remembered the Napoleonic Wars—in fact soon-to-be-Kaiser Wilhelm himself fought in the Napoleonic Wars—but there had not been a major conflict involving France and Prussia since.
When in 1870 Prussia then spectacularly annihilated the armies of France, mere years after crushing Austria, it was no normal victory. Instead, it was an upheaval of continental European politics.
For centuries France had been the greatest military power in Europe while Germany, although at points certainly powerful, fell second to it.
But then, in the Hall of Mirrors in 1871, a new country was formed. One that could not just compete with France but surpass it. One that could challenge the industrial might of Britain. One that could completely overturn the balance of power in Europe.
Germany had risen, where better to show it than the heart of a defeated rival?
除了凡尔赛宫的荣耀之外，选择它作为德意志帝国成立的宣布地的主要原因是为了发出一个响亮而明确的信息。
在现代历史的大部分时间里，当然是自1871年以来，法德关系一直是一个具有威慑力的德国威胁和笼罩着一个较弱的法国。近年来，这种关系已不再是敌对的，但在经济上，德国迄今为止仍然是一个大国。
你需要了解的是，这并不总是事实。
事实上，在历史的大部分时间里，情况恰恰相反。
德国至少自查理曼大帝以来，一直生活在对法国的恐惧之中。几个世纪以来，它一直是欧洲的巨人，特别是从15世纪开始，它一再向神圣罗马帝国的土地进一步推进，进入当时被认为是德国的土地。
因此，到了19世纪，普鲁士王国（后来统一了德国）已经处于对法国的严重恐惧状态。
然后，当这个家伙降临时，事情才变得更糟：
在拿破仑-波拿巴的统治下，法国在西欧和中欧实现了军事霸权的状态。由于被半岛战争、拿破仑入侵俄罗斯和击败哈斯堡奥地利帝国等战役的荣耀所掩盖，人们常常忘记普鲁士在拿破仑战争中所扮演的角色。
尽管在滑铁卢，普鲁士人确实尝到了复仇的滋味，但总的来说，拿破仑时代对普鲁士来说是可怕的羞辱。
它见证了普鲁士本身的失败和残酷的残害，其大片领土被没收，并见证了法国对德国大部分政治的十多年的统治。
如上图所示，到1812年，德国的大部分地区已经被法国吞并，其余地区被征服，普鲁士王国本身虽然在技术上是独立的，但显然受制于法国王室。
到1870年，人们对这一事件仍记忆犹新。
不仅实际上时间并不长，50年的时间很短，许多活着的人都会记得拿破仑战争--事实上，即将成为皇帝的威廉本人也参加了拿破仑战争--但自那以后，法国和普鲁士就没有发生过重大冲突。
1870年，当普鲁士在击溃奥地利仅仅数年之后，又惊人地歼灭了法国军队，这不是一场普通的胜利。相反，它是欧洲大陆政治的一次动荡。
几个世纪以来，法国一直是欧洲最大的军事强国，而德国虽然在某些时候也很强大，但却仅次于它。
但随后，在1871年的镜厅里，一个新的国家成立了。这个国家不仅可以与法国竞争，而且可以超越它。一个可以挑战英国工业实力的国家。一个可以完全颠覆欧洲权力平衡的国家。
德国已经崛起，在哪里会比在一个战败对手的心脏更能彰显它呢？
“This was very much in memory”
As a commentary on this: Wilhelm I was in fact a veteran of the Napoleonic wars. He served in 1814–15, and was actually described as a gallant officer.
"这是很有纪念意义的"
作为对这一点的评论。威廉一世实际上是一名拿破仑战争的老兵。他在1814-15年服役，实际上被描述为一名英勇的军官。
I find it completely unfair that France was always allowed to be the stronger out of the two, yet that one time when Germany is stronger, everybody gangs up on Germany and forces it into the WW1 situation instead of advocating peace.
The Peace of Versailles in 1918 was also by far harsher on the Germans than the one in 1871.
我觉得完全不公平的是，法国总是被允许成为两个国家中的强者，然而终于当德国更强大的时候，每个人都对德国群起而攻之，迫使它陷入一战的局面，而不是倡导和平。
1918年的《凡尔赛和约》也远比1871年的和约对德国人更严厉。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
What do you mean by "always allowed"? France has always been kept in check by alliances and collations in some form or another.
And what do you mean by "that one time"? Germany was the centre of the Holy Roman Empire, that was at many points in history the main power in Europe and sometimes quite literally sandwiched France.
And could you please define what you mean by harsher?
你说的"总是允许"是什么意思？法国一直被某种形式的联盟和勾结所牵制。
而你说的"终于"是什么意思？德国是神圣罗马帝国的中心，在历史上的许多时候，它都是欧洲的主要力量，有时根本是把法国夹在中间。
你能不能定义一下你所说的更严厉的和平意思？
You asked, you shall receive.
By always allowed, I mean that that nobody looked at the big dominant European power France following the 100 Year War after shaking off English influence and uniting their people, and decided to put it in a war it can’t win, surrounded and then destroy it’s dominance in a peace treaty. Instead France was a major power for hundreds of years in Europe whilst Germany was fractured from the fall of the Frankish Empire to the Unification of Germany in the 19th century, heralded by the brilliant policies of Otto von Bismarck.
And I do understand there were the coalitions against the French during the Napoleonic Wars, but that was different. But those were to check off French ambitions in the far east of their realm, not to weaken it following the unification of all French people.
The HRE wasn’t an unified country. Like the saying goes “it wasn’t holy, wasn’t Roman and it wasn’t an empire”, it was a collection of smaller states in not just Germany, but territory that would today be part of the Low countries, France, Italy, Austria, Czechia, Slovenia, Croatia and Poland. I mean the French prove my point for me considering Napoleon disestablished the HRE.
As for the issue of Germany “threatening” the balance of powers in Europe, WW1 pretty much proves that even after all the carrying Germany did in the war, it couldn’t do it all alone. Who knows, maybe the Italians are at fault for not switching sides before the war, then Germany would look less competitive to the French, Russians and British.
The peace at the Versailles palace following the Franco-Prussian war was way less harsh whichever way you cut it. France didn’t go into a debt that would have to be paid for 100 years like Germany did at the Treaty of Versailles following WW1. Land wise, Germany lost more land than France did, and the land they lost was German speaking anyways. Ofc there are some similarities and I have to mention them like how the Germans occupied the heartland of French industry, the same as the French did in the Rhineland.
But the French went berserk over their loss in the Franco Prussian war, they felt bitter over their defeat and decided to destroy the German Empire by any means necessary, even allying to the British. They even flirted with far left and far right ideologies over this loss, the roots of fascism can even be attributed to France over this loss. Georges Valois for example states that the Jacobin movement in France was an inspiration to the fascists in Italy. Some historians even mention Napoleon the III. Whichever way you cut it, the French definitely had totalitarian run governments similar to fascist governments before tge fascists came to power in Italy.
Yet the French thought it was alright to harshly punish the Germans and essentially make them choose to go the Hitler route following a failed democracy from 1921 to 1932.
Do you see my point ?
既然你问了，我就来回答你。
我说的“总是允许”，是指看着百年战争后的欧洲主导大国法国在摆脱了英国的影响并团结了他们的人民后，没有人决定发动一场让它赢不了的战争，把它包围起来，然后用和平条约摧毁它的统治地位。相反，法国在欧洲的几百年里一直是一个大国，而德国从法兰克帝国的衰落到19世纪德国的统一，在奥托-冯-俾斯麦的杰出政策下才结束四分五裂。
我也知道在拿破仑战争期间有反对法国人的联盟，但那是不同的。那些是为了遏制法国人在其王国遥远的东边地区的野心，而不是因为看到法国的统一决定去削弱它。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
神圣罗马帝国并不是一个统一的国家。正如人们所说的那样，"它既不神圣，也不罗马，也更不是一个帝国"，它是一个小国的集合，不仅包含德国，而且包含了今天属于低地国家、法国、意大利、奥地利、捷克、斯洛文尼亚、克罗地亚和波兰的领土。我的意思是，法国人证明了我的观点，考虑到拿破仑废除了神圣罗马帝国。
至于德国"威胁"欧洲大国平衡的问题，一战几乎证明，即使德国在战争中做了那么多，单凭它自己也成不了大气候。谁知道呢，也许错在意大利人没有在战前就换边，那样德国在法国人、俄国人和英国人眼里就会显得不那么有竞争了。
普法战争后在凡尔赛宫签订的和平条约，无论从哪个角度看，都没有那么严酷。法国没有像德国在一战后的《凡尔赛条约》中那样欠下要还100年的债务。从土地上看，德国失去的土地比法国多，而且他们失去的土地完完全全都是德语区。当然，也有一些相似之处，我必须提及，比如德国人如何占领了法国工业的中心地带，就像法国人在莱茵兰所做的一样。
但法国人因为在普法战争中的失利而发狂，他们对自己的失败感到痛苦，决定不择手段地摧毁德意志帝国，甚至与英国结盟。他们甚至因为这次失败而与极左和极右的意识形态勾结，法西斯主义的根源甚至可以归结为法国的这次失败。例如，乔治-瓦卢斯指出，法国的雅各宾派运动是意大利法西斯的灵感来源。一些历史学家甚至提到拿破仑三世。不管你怎么说，在法西斯分子在意大利上台之前，法国肯定有类似于法西斯政府的极权主义政府。
然而，法国人认为严厉地惩罚德国人，让他们在1921年至1932年的民主失败后选择走希特勒的路线是正确的。
你现在明白我的意思了吗？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Coursework in Medi, Early Modern, Modern periods; BA; know enough to get
The German Empire was proclaimed at Versailles, as opposed to in Germany, for a very good reason: because it was meant to represent all of Germany.
Although the other answers have explained why William I chose Versailles for the proclamation of the German Empire, as opposed to some other foreign court (Vienna?), they’ve omitted the second question: why not Germany?
I had almost this exact conversation with my German history professor during the second year of my undergraduate degree.
ME: Why didn’t the coronation of William I happen in Berlin?
DR. HABERER: Then it would have looked like a Prussian takeover.
The German Empire was sold to its constituent kingdoms as a German unification, not a Prussian conquest. There was never a forcible annexation of Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, etc. The regional princes had to buy into the Empire.
德意志帝国在凡尔赛宣布成立而不是在德国宣布，有一个很好的理由：因为它要代表整个德国。
虽然其他答案已经解释了为什么威廉一世选择在凡尔赛宣布德意志帝国，而不是在其他的外国王宫（维也纳），但他们忽略了第二个问题：为什么不是在德国？
在我本科二年级的时候，和我的德国历史教授几乎有过相同的对话。
我：为什么威廉一世的加冕仪式没有放在柏林？
教授：那样的话，它（对德国的统一）看起来就像是普鲁士的征服。
德意志帝国是作为“德意志的统一”来卖给其它组成王国的，而不是“普鲁士的征服”。巴伐利亚、巴登-符腾堡等地从未被强行吞并过。各地区的王公们不得不买账并入帝国。