红迪网民讨论历史上欧洲从中国窃取的工艺技术

TIL in 550 AD the Byzantine Emperor dispatched two monks to smuggle silk worms out of China to bypass Persian control over the Silk Road. Hidden in the monks'' walking sticks, the silk worms produced a Byzantine silk industry that fuelled the economy for the next 650 years.

2022-10-04 西斯摩多 17040 0 3 收藏纠错&举报

译文简介

公元550年，拜占庭皇帝派遣两名僧侣绕过波斯对丝绸之路的控制，从中国走私蚕虫。藏在僧侣手杖里的蚕，催生了拜占庭的丝绸工业，推动了后来650年的经济发展。

正文翻译

TIL in 550 AD the Byzantine Emperor dispatched two monks to smuggle silk worms out of China to bypass Persian control over the Silk Road. Hidden in the monks' walking sticks, the silk worms produced a Byzantine silk industry that fuelled the economy for the next 650 years.

公元550年，拜占庭皇帝派遣两名僧侣绕过波斯对丝绸之路的控制，从中国走私蚕虫。藏在僧侣手杖里的蚕，催生了拜占庭的丝绸工业，推动了后来650年的经济发展。

评论翻译

Aye - Justinian.
Historically, the clinch point was the Persians - they'd add whatever markup they wanted and there was no other bypass - the eastern frontier of the Byzantine Empire was where the western part of the Persian began.
Also somewhat odd is Justinian's choice of agents - Nestorian priests. They were subjected to persecution as heretics of Orthodox Christianity, so IIRC Justinian told them to fuck off to China so he wouldn't have to deal with them ever again.

查士丁尼一世
历史上，问题出在波斯人身上——他们（对东方的商品）想怎么加价就怎么加价，而且不能绕道——拜占庭帝国的东部边境是波斯人西部的起点。
查士丁尼对代理人的选择也有些奇怪——聂斯脱利派牧师（即景教，唐代传入中国的基督教聂斯脱里派）。因为是东正教分裂出来的异教徒，他们受到了迫害，所以查士丁尼让他们滚到中国去，这样他就不用再和他们打交道了。

Probably they weren’t actual Nestorian priests, but were chosen to pretend to be them so they’d be less likely to be suspected as agents.

可能他们不是真正的聂斯脱利派牧师，而是被要求假扮他们，这样他们就不太可能被怀疑是间谍。

Who knows? The Nestorians weren't monophysticic so they were already subject to heresy charges. On the other hand, they had more "forward operating bases" in Asia Minor and the Byzantine eastern frontier.
Mind you, this is a particularly bi-polar Emperor with everything from politics to military matters, whose to know for sure?
The way Procopius writes it in one version, Justinian says "secret of silk? Uh, yeah, sure. Good luck with that. Um, see you in ten years? Whatever, fuck off". In the other account, Justinian is a visionary who received special knowledge based on personal divination.

【可能他们不是真正的聂斯脱利派牧师】
谁知道呢?聂斯脱利派不是正统基督教，所以他们被指责为异端。另一方面，他们在小亚细亚和拜占庭东部边境有更多的“前沿作战基地”（聂斯脱利派发源于拜占庭东部）。
而且重要的是，查士丁尼一世是一个特别两极化的皇帝，在政治和军事上都是，谁能确定呢?
普罗科匹厄斯在一个版本中写道，查士丁尼说：“丝绸的秘密？嗯,是的,当然。祝你好运。十年后再来见我?无论如何,现在滚蛋”。在另一种说法中，查士丁尼是一个有远见的人，他学习了基于占卜的特殊知识。

Its incredible how many incredible voyages were effectively funded by kings and queens going "yes fine shut up have a boat or whatever hopefully you drown and stop annoying me".

令人难以置信的是，有多少不可思议的航行是由国王和女王像这样资助的:“好吧，闭嘴，给你条船或者其他任何东西，你淹死了得了，别再烦我了。”

Did he perhaps use actual Nestorian priests for plausible deniability if they got caught?

他也许正是要利用聂斯脱利派牧师，以便在他们被抓的时候进行合理的推诿?

Sending two guys and what could very well be a suicide mission doesn't seem like a plan he thought would work.
Tale as old as time you take the credit for that thing you didn't expect to pan out.

派两个人去执行一个自杀式的任务并不像是一个既定的计划。
一个人把他没料到会成功的事情归功于自己，这是老故事了。

The way Procopius writes it in one version, Justinian says "secret of silk? Uh, yeah, sure. Good luck with that. Um, see you in ten years? Whatever, fuck off". In the other account, Justinian is a visionary who received special knowledge based on personal divination.
"Ah, all according to plan. Everything has commenced as you predicted, Lord Ainz- err, I mean, My Basil."

【普罗科匹厄斯在一个版本中写道，查士丁尼说：“丝绸的秘密？嗯,是的,当然。祝你好运。十年后再来见我?无论如何,现在滚蛋”。在另一种说法中，查士丁尼是一个有远见的人，他学习了基于占卜的特殊知识】
“啊，一切都按计划进行。一切都像你预言的那样顺利进行，安茨勋爵——呃，我是说，我的巴兹尔。”

Agree on the probably, though we'll never know for sure. But Nestorian priests were probably more trustworthy for the mission, or at least pretending to be Nestorians was a good idea, because pockets of Nestorian christians existed throughout central and eastern Asia, and they weren't affiliated with a state in particular so they were less likely to create suspicion.

【可能他们不是真正的聂斯脱利派牧师，而是被要求假扮他们，这样他们就不太可能被怀疑是间谍。】
同意这种可能性，尽管我们永远无法知道真相。但聂斯脱利派牧师有可能更值得信赖，至少假装是聂斯脱利派是个好主意，因为在中亚和东亚各地都有一些聂斯脱利派基督徒，他们不隶属于某个特定的国家，所以他们不太可能引起怀疑。

Nestorian Christianity was the dominant form in Persia. They were one of the few people who could go in without raising suspicion

聂斯脱里派基督教是波斯的主要宗教，他们是为数不多的能进入波斯而不引起怀疑的人

Good call for him. Either they died smuggling, or they succeeded and produced a ton of wealth for him

他做得好。大不了他们死于走私，一旦成功了，就会为他创造大量财富

_far-seeker_
Historically, the clinch point was the Persians - they'd add whatever markup they wanted and there was no other bypass - the eastern frontier of the Byzantine Empire was where the western part of the Persian began.
Technically there were trade routes to East Asia through India and then by sea that existed at least as far back as the 1st Century AD. However oceanic travel, even when essentially hugging the coast, was significantly more dangerous than the land routes through Persia.

【历史上，关键是波斯人——他们想加什么加价就加什么加价，而且没有其他的绕道——拜占庭帝国的东部边境是波斯人西部的起点。】
从技术上讲，早在公元1世纪就有经印度再经海路通往东亚的贸易路线。然而，海洋旅行，即使是沿着海岸航行，也比通过波斯的陆上路线要危险得多。

Just ask the Romans about how dangerous sea travel was back in the day. They must hold the world record for the most men lost at sea.

看看罗马人就知道当年的海上旅行有多危险。他们一定是海上失踪人数最多的世界纪录保持者。

Funny because Byzantiums conquerors did the exact opposite with coffee. Used to be pre-brewed in barrels for months long voyage to Europe. Apparently the top had to be scraped off to be drinkable.

有趣的是，拜占庭征服者的咖啡制作方法完全不同。过去是在运往欧洲的长途航行中在桶里预酿几个月，当然，只有刮掉表面才能饮用。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

They couldn't just go up and around through what would become Ukraine and Russia?

他们就不能直接穿过后来的乌克兰和俄罗斯吗?

They'd need good roads for their carts on a profitable route. That probably wasn't likely going that way, and they were more likely to be robbed and/or murdered in areas without effective governments.

他们需要良好的道路，以便于他们的车在合适的路线上行驶。在没有有效政府的地区，他们更有可能遭到抢劫和/或谋杀。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

This could make a cool movie.

这可以拍一部很酷的电影。

The same thing happened with Chinese tea. Robert Fortune was a Scottish botanist who had a deal with the East India Trading Company to smuggle out some tea saplings and seeds. The British also had extremely limited knowledge on how tea was grown and processed. In fact when the British first got tea from China they asked if they could get only black tea and not green tea. The Chinese were a bit confused because black tea is just burned green tea. The Chinese agreed and where happy to upcharge for burning the tea.
Getting the saplings and seeds was not going to be an easy endeavor. The Chinese had specifics on how far a respective foreigner could travel and where they could go. The big law at the time was you could only travel as far as you could in a day but you needed to make it back to your specific trade area by sundown. Robert Fortune was obviously going to need to be gone alot longer then that since many of the tea operations where located in inland China.
Robert shaved his head, had a custom wig with the popular male Mandarin hairstyle made, dressed in Mandarin clothing, and hired some Chinese guides. He traveled under the guise of a dignitary and not once was ever suspected as anything else. In fact most tea producers just gave him seeds without asking any questions. Robert received 500 pounds (triple his annual pay) and his haul was 10,000-13,000 seeds and all of china's tea growing knowledge. The EITC set up tea plantations in India afterwards and the rest is history.
Sources:
A Journey to the Tea Countries of China
For All the Tea in China

同样的事情也发生在中国的茶叶上。罗伯特·福琼是一位苏格兰植物学家，他与东印度贸易公司签订了一项协议，东印度公司要求他从中国走私一些茶树和种子。英国人对茶叶的种植和加工知之甚少。事实上，当英国人第一次从中国买茶时，他们询问是否可以只买红茶不要绿茶。中国人对此有点困惑，因为红茶就是烧过的绿茶（原文如此）。中国人同意了，并且很开心地加价卖出了烧过的绿茶。
拿到树苗和种子不是一件容易的事。中国人严格规定了外国人可以走多远，可以去哪里。当时的法律是，你在一天内可以随意走动，但你必须在日落前回到特定的交易区域。罗伯特·福琼显然需要更长的时间，因为很多茶业都位于中国内陆。
罗伯特剃了光头，定制了一顶流行的男性中式发型的假发，穿着中式服装，还雇了一些中文导游。他假扮成富人出行，从来没有人怀疑他的身份。事实上，大多数茶农都没有问他任何问题，直接给了他种子。罗伯特得到了500英镑(相当于他三年年薪)，他收获了1万至1.3万颗种子和全中国的茶叶种植知识。东印度贸易公司后来在印度建立了茶园，接下来就像历史那样继续下去。
来源:
中国茶国之旅
为了全中国的茶叶

Wow, just learned black tea is green tea...

哇，我才知道红茶是绿茶…

Fyi, black tea is not 'burned' green tea. Parent comment doesn't know what he/she's talking about. Black tea, or cured-leaf tea, is made from tea leaves that are left to cure/oxidize for a time after picking and before drying. The oxidization changes the flavor. Green tea is dried immediately after picking to stop the oxidation process. Both 'black' and 'green' teas can come from the same plant, and a variety of curing and drying processes can be used to change the flavor of the final product.

顺便说一句，红茶不是“烧焦的”的绿茶。显然上面的评论不知道他/她在说什么。红茶，或熟叶茶，是由茶叶在采摘后到干燥前的一段时间内经过一段时间的熟化/氧化制成的。红茶经过氧化改变了味道，绿茶采摘后立即晾干，以阻止氧化过程。“红茶”和“绿茶”都来自同一种植物，各种的腌制和干燥手段可以用来改变最终茶叶的味道。

Good explanation. Burning wasn't quite the right term but oxidation makes sense.

好解释。烧焦这个词不太恰当，氧化比较合适

Burning is just uncontrolled oxidation at high temperatures lol

燃烧就是在高温下不受控制的氧化，哈哈

Most Chinese teas are the same plant just picked and processed differently.

大多数中国茶都是同一种植物，只是采摘和加工方式不同。

Black tea is not burned. It is crushed and dried slowly. Green tea is simply the dried leaves. The reason the English wanted the back tea is because it kept better when shipping around the world.
Making ~back~ black tea does take some skill. I've tried a handful of times, I can get it to look like black tea but struggle to get the trace green tea flavor completely out.
Source: I have tea bushes
Edit: white tea is also the same plant but it is the leaf buds that are collected before they fully open

红茶不是烧制的，它先被碾碎，然后慢慢晾干。绿茶就是干茶叶。英国人想要红茶的原因是它更易于保存，方便在世界范围内运输。
制作红茶确实需要一些技巧。我试了几次，我只能让它外观上看起来像红茶，但无法完全去除绿茶的味道。
来源:我有茶树
编辑1:白茶来自于同一种植物，但它是在叶芽完全长成之前收集的

Didn't this also stop the Opium smuggling in China too, as after this the british were able to produce tea in India?
(The chinese would only accept silver bullion for tea. English demand for tea was so strong that they almost crashed their economy as all their silver bullion went to China. Solution was to smuggle Opium in China from India, which was paid by Chinese in silver bullion, then exchange the bullion for tea)

这不是也阻止了鸦片在中国的走私吗?因为在这之后，英国人能够在印度生产茶叶了。
(中国人只接受用银块来交换茶叶。英国人对茶叶的需求是如此强烈，以至于他们的经济几乎崩溃，因为他们所有的银两都流向了中国。英国的解决办法是从印度走私鸦片到中国，中国人用银子交付，然后英国人用银子购买茶叶)

It all makes sense now. The west stole from Chinese long back and now the Chinese might be justifying themselves for infringing patents of west.

现在一切都说得通了。西方很久以前就窃取了中国人的专利，现在中国人一定觉得侵犯西方的专利是理所当然的

People less technologically developed are going to copy from the leaders. Everyone stole from the most advanced places. It is how progress is made. The only reason to refrain from sharing information is to maintain dominance and supremacy in one eay or another.

技术不发达的人会模仿领先的人。每个国家都从最先进的地方偷东西。进步就是这样产生的。不共享信息的唯一原因只是要尽一切办法保持主导地位和霸权地位

So the West was stealing shit from China and now China stealing shit from the West. So come a hundred years ago we going back full circle?

过去西方从中国偷东西，现在中国从西方偷东西。所以我们又回到了一百年前，一切只不过转了个圈?

The British are great at being scummy.

英国人很擅长做人渣。

Black tea is burned green tea common dude get it together

红茶是烧过的绿茶，普通人会把它们弄混淆

If I remember correctly, a similar thing happened with strawberries from South America.

如果我没记错的话，类似的事情也发生在了南美的草莓上

Damn the British really screwed China. First with the tea then with opium.

该死的，英国人真的把中国搞砸了。先是茶，然后是鸦片。

What an interesting history, worthy to be made into a movie, or better yet, a book since it would allow to write more details about the setting and the action.

多么有趣的一段历史，值得拍一部电影，最好是写一本书，因为这样可以描述更多背景和行动的细节

Amazing! I guess it's not really surprising, since silk was so closely guarded. I wonder what they fed the silkworms once they got to the Byzantine empire?

太惊奇了!我想这并不奇怪，既然丝绸技术被严密保护着。我想知道他们到了拜占庭帝国后用什么喂蚕虫?

Mulberry. They brought that along too, or ensured it was in place beforehand.

桑树。他们也把桑树带回来了，或者事先已经准备好了

That makes sense. Guess the mulberry should have been guarded as closely as the silkworms.

这就说得通了。我猜桑树应该和蚕一样被严密看守。

Can silk worms not eat European mulberry trees?

蚕不能吃欧洲桑树吗?

Apparently they can if it's the right kind of mulberry tree. I got curious with your question and looked it up. Silkworms only eat the leaves of the white mulberry tree.

显然，只要桑树的品种合适，它们就可以喂养蚕虫。我对你的问题很好奇，就查了一下。蚕只吃白桑树的叶子。

Industrial theft.

工业盗窃。

Literally worse than the GTA 6 source code leak

比《侠盗猎车手6》的源代码泄露还糟糕

China is getting revenge for it now

中国现在开始报复了

Industrial espionage. Please.

【工业盗窃】
这叫工业间谍。

Industrial espionage is the term.

【工业盗窃】
准确的术语应该是工业间谍。

Ironic that China was the victim here instead of the culprit.

讽刺的是，此刻中国是受害者而不是犯错者

很赞 (3) 历史欧洲中国工艺技术

红迪网民讨论历史上欧洲从中国窃取的工艺技术

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