为什么东罗马帝国能在罗马陷落后幸存下来？
Why did the Roman Empire in the East survive the fall of Rome?
译文简介
他们有更强大的经济，有更多的城市化地区，如安提阿、亚历山大、君士坦丁堡、雅典等等。
正文翻译
Why did the Roman Empire in the East survive the fall of Rome?
为什么东罗马帝国能在罗马陷落后幸存下来？
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, M.A History & Latin, Ohio University (2016)
C.J. Skamarakas
, PhD History (2009)
Well it was really just geography
So- the East has some advantages over the West
They had a far stronger economy with more urbanized areas like Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Athens, and so on
They had all the great trade routes with direct access to the Middle East, the Southern Nile Valley, and the Black sea
Strong defensible borders.
The Southern border faces desert- easily defendable
The Eastern border faces the Sassanid Empire. While the Sassanids were a threat, they were also a united civilization Empire capable of diplomacy and trade.
这其实只是地理问题
简单来说--东方比西方有一些优势
他们有更强大的经济，有更多的城市化地区，如安提阿、亚历山大、君士坦丁堡、雅典等等。
他们拥有所有伟大的贸易路线，可以直接进入中东、南尼罗河流域和黑海
强大的可防御的边界。
南部边界面对沙漠--易于防守
东部边界面对萨珊帝国。虽然萨珊王朝是一个威胁，但他们也是一个能够进行外交和贸易的统一的文明帝国。
The Northern Greek border faces Europe and is hard to defend
When the barbarians came sacking this is why Greece alone bore the brunt of their attacks.
Note that Greece was all most barbarians could touch. To get to the rest of the Empire they would need a fleet and for many barbarians, this was a difficult task. This allowed the Eastern Romans to quarantine the barbarians in Greece when necessary
A centrally located capital that held a strong strategic position
The West meanwhile had problems
东北部边境面对的是山区
希腊北部边界面对欧洲，难以防守
这就是为什么当野蛮人来洗劫时希腊独自承受了他们的攻击。
请注意，希腊是大多数野蛮人能够接触到的所有地方。要想进入帝国的其他地区，他们需要一支舰队，而对于许多野蛮人来说，这是一项艰难的任务。这使得东罗马人在必要时可以将野蛮人隔离在希腊。
一个位于中心位置的拥有强大的战略地位的首都，
同时，西罗马自己也有问题
They had no access to good trading partners. In the past, the Empire relied on trade in the Middle East to fuel the poorer Western half. Goods extracted in the West could be exported where they needed to go. This was no longer the case though
Weak vulnerable borders
The Eastern border is insanely long and faces hundreds of disunited and desperate tribes fleeing the Huns. These tribes could often be negotiated with but there were far too many to realistically do so.
Britian is defensible to a degree but cut off the greater Empire and was thus lost very early on
经济更多的是以农业和开采为基础。有城市地区，但没有那么多，也没有那么复杂。
他们没有机会接触到好的贸易伙伴。在过去，帝国依靠中东的贸易为较贫穷的西半部提供经济燃料。在西部开采的货物可以出口到它们需要去的地方。但现在的情况已不再如此
脆弱的边境线
东部边界长得离谱，面临着数以百计的为逃离匈人而分裂和绝望的部落。这些部落虽然可以与之谈判，但数量太多，现实中无法做到这一点。
不列颠在一定程度上是可以防御的，但它切断了和大帝国的联系，因此很早就失去了。
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A religion dividing the population
A series of very weak and long-ruling Emperors like Honorius who doomed the Empire
A severe lack of military recruits. For a while, Illyria served as great recruitment grounds for the legions, but Illyria was soon being ravaged and this caused problems
So the Western Roman Empire has bad Emperors, lacks the funds for long-term military building projects, and needs troops fast to stem the barbarians.
Their solution is to recruit the barbarian tribes as mercenaries. The problem is that they mistreat them and make no attempt to integrate the tribes into the larger Empire. So these tribes frequently revolted and turned on Rome.
The lack of soldiers meant they could not defend their borders. This then leads to a loss of crucial territory which causes further recruitment shortages and money troubles. This in turn means they need to rely more and more on mercenaries to protect the Empire. These mercenaries are mistreated and do not do a great job at defending the Empire and this causes more territory to be lost.
Eventually, the Roman Army is literally just a group of barbarian tribes hired to protect Rome. Pretty quickly these tribes realized they were in charge and Rome died.
Now the East relied on mercenaries too, but not nearly as much. They still had prime recruitment areas and a large professional military. They had the funds to keep this military maintained and so their reliance on mercenaries was not as complete as it was in the West.
因此，西方处于一个艰难的境地。然后你会发现一些复杂的问题，例如：
一个分裂人口的宗教
一系列非常软弱和长期执政的皇帝，如霍诺里乌斯，他们注定了帝国的命运
严重缺乏新兵。有一段时间，伊利里亚是军团招募的好地方，但伊利里亚很快就被蹂躏了，这就造成了兵员问题。
因此，西罗马帝国有着差劲的皇帝，缺乏进行长期军事建设项目的资金，并且需要快速的部队来阻止野蛮人的入侵。
他们的解决方案是招募野蛮人部落作为雇佣兵。问题是，他们又虐待他们，并没有尝试将这些部落融入大帝国。因此，这些部落经常造反，并反戈罗马。
士兵的缺乏意味着他们无法保卫自己的边界。这就导致了关键领土的丧失，从而造成了进一步的招募短缺和资金问题。这反过来又意味着他们需要越来越多地依靠雇佣兵来保护帝国。这些雇佣兵受到虐待，在保卫帝国方面做得不是很好，这导致了更多领土的丧失。
最终，罗马军队简直就是一群被雇来保护罗马的野蛮部落。很快，这些部落就意识到他们才是老大，于是罗马就死了。
说回东方，他们也依赖雇佣兵，但没有那么多。他们仍然有主要的兵员地和一支庞大的专业军队。他们有足够的资金来维持这支军队，因此他们对雇佣军的依赖不像西方那样彻底。
Of course, it wasn’t the reliance on mercenaries that killed off western Rome. It was the fact they never respected them, or the fact they didn’t have the means with which they could afford to disrespect them.
They needed more Romans. They didn’t have the means to be picky about who could be called Roman.
当然，杀死西罗马的并不是对雇佣兵的依赖。而是他们从未尊重过他们，或者说他们没有能够负担得起不尊重他们的行为。
他们需要更多的罗马人。而且他们没有办法对谁能被称为罗马人进行挑剔。
Did the Eastern Empire see themselves as a separate entity from the Western Empire as it started to fall, or did they see thaelves as one entity to the bitter end?
在西罗马帝国开始衰落时，东罗马帝国是把自己看作是一个独立与西罗马的实体，还是直到最后都把自己看作是“罗马帝国”这个实体？
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it ididnt; they were considered and considered themselves not only part of the same empire, but THE same Roman Empire, until the fall of Constantinople in the 1400s ; and they were the Roman Empire, de facto and de jure
他们不仅被认为是同一个帝国的一部分，而且被认为是同一个罗马帝国的一部分，直到14世纪君士坦丁堡的陷落；他们是罗马帝国，事实上和法律上都是如此。
Also to add on Daniel’s answer, there was no conscious separate Roman Empire. Both empires, east and west are still official one united empire, under two administration. So for most people at that time, they didnt see or call it as western roman empire or eastern roman empire.
另外，在丹尼尔的回答上再加一点，没有一个独立于罗马帝国的另一个罗马的意识体。东部和西部的两个帝国仍然是正式的统一帝国，只是由两个政府管理。因此，对于当时的大多数人来说，他们不认为或不称它为西罗马帝国或东罗马帝国。
Also worth noting that the Roman emperors themselves understood these differences and the issues with the West, and thus Constantine actually moved the capital of the unified Roman Empire (before the split) to Constantinople.
另外值得注意的是，罗马皇帝自己也了解这些分歧和与西方存在的问题，因此，君士坦丁实际上将统一的罗马帝国（分裂前）的首都迁到了君士坦丁堡。
I think it's key to really hammer home the leadership failures here; because the Roman position in the west was by NO means completely untenable.
What the Western Roman Empire still had, was Italia, and even in 400 AD, the city of Rome itself was still large enough to economically support the peninsula; despite declining productions across the board, Italia was still one of the richest provinces in the empire. I'm not entirely sure about agricultural production in Italy vs. Consumption, but it's possible that the peninsula could have supported itself from a food perspective; if not, as you said, most barbarians did not have significant fleets, so trade with the East via. The Mediterranean should have been able to support any discrepancy.
Best of all, the Italian peninsula is extremely defensible; the alps serve as excellent natural barriers, and provide chokepoints from which Rome can defend the entire peninsula.
Basically, if Rome had seen a COMPETENT emperor come to power in 395 AD rather than one of the worst emperors in the history of the empire, I believe that they could have “saved” Western Rome by pulling back to the Italain peninsula, training new legions, and basically hunkering down for a few hundred years. Fixing the issues and degradation of public institutions that led to the crisis would be a LOT harder, of course, and may have been impossible by 400 AD, but Rome definitely could have survived in a reduced state for a lot longer if it weren't for Honorius.
我认为，真正的关键是要强调西罗马领导层的失败；因为罗马在西部的地位绝不是完全无法维持的。
西罗马帝国仍然拥有着意大利，即使在公元400年，罗马城本身的规模仍然足以在经济上支持整个半岛；尽管生产力全面下降，但是意大利仍然是帝国中最富裕的省份之一。我不能完全确定意大利的农业生产与消费情况，但从食物的角度来看，半岛有可能可以自给自足；如果不是这样，正如你所说的，大多数蛮族都没有强大的舰队，所以也可以通过与东方贸易。地中海的航运应该能够支持这点生产力的差异。
最重要的是，意大利半岛是非常容易防守的；阿尔卑斯山是极好的天然屏障，并提供了罗马帝国可以保卫整个半岛的咽喉。
基本上，如果罗马在公元395年能够有一个有能力的皇帝上台，而不是帝国历史上最糟糕的皇帝之一，我相信他们可以通过撤到意大利半岛，训练新的军团，并基本上蛰伏几百年来"拯救"西罗马。当然，解决导致危机的问题和公共机构的退化会困难很多，而且到公元400年可能已经不可能这么做了，但如果不是因为霍诺里斯，罗马绝对可以在放弃一部分领土的状态下存在更长的时间。
The crazy thing about the geography today is that it favors Western Europe while the east is poor and less developed. France alone is better off than the balkans.. well Montenegro is doing pretty well for itself
I know it took nearly a thousand years to get there and the invention of deepwater navigation in Portugal. But it's still interesting to see how Eastern Rome was vs the West. Then the Ottomans which were basically the unquestionable superpower till the tech previously mentioned became the norm.
三十年河东三十年河西啊，今天的地理环境的疯狂之处在于，它有利于西欧，而东部则是贫穷和不发达的。仅法国自己就比整个巴尔干半岛都好......好在黑山的情况还不错
我知道它花了近一千年的时间，在葡萄牙发明了深水航行技术。但看看东罗马与西罗马的对比还是很有意思的。然后是奥斯曼人，他们基本上是毫无疑问的超级大国，直到前面提到的技术成为常规。
Provincia Brittania actually held out longer than many other parts of the Western Empire. They eventually evacuated the Romano-Breton population to modern Brittany in northwest France. It held out as a Roman enclave for hundreds of years. At one point they sent an emissary to Constantinople requesting military support but the (Eastern) Roman Empire didn't have the resources to go to war with the Germanic kingdoms.
Also “Greece" was Macedonia. In the Eastern Empire there were far more Roman citizens than in the Western Empire. This is because Macedonians and other Hellenic peoples were granted citizenship and treated equal to Romans. In fact, they were not called Greeks — they were all called Romans.
布列塔尼亚省实际上比西罗马帝国的许多其他地区坚持得更久。他们最终将罗马-布列塔尼人口疏散到法国西北部的现代布列塔尼。它作为罗马的一块飞地坚持了数百年。他们曾一度向君士坦丁堡派出使者，请求军事支持，但（东）罗马帝国没有资源与日耳曼王国开战。
另外，"希腊"就是马其顿。在东罗马帝国，罗马公民的数量远远多于西罗马帝国。这是因为马其顿人和其他希腊民族被授予了公民身份，并得到与罗马人平等的待遇。事实上，他们不再被称为希腊人--他们都被称为罗马人。
I like to think of it as poetic justice. The eastern half left the western half to rot and disintegrate.
1000 years later, the west ignores the pleas of the eastern half and the eastern half disappears.
Poetic justice.
我喜欢把它想成是一种善有善报恶有恶报。1000年前，东边的一半眼睁睁地让西边的一半腐烂和瓦解。
1000年后，西方无视东半部的请求，东半部就此消失。
善恶有报啊。
The Western Empire had to deal more with Germanic Tribes… These were not insignificant as to day these tribes turned into France, Germany, The Netherland, Austria and England.
I’m not sure the East had as powerful ethnic tribes as the Germanics..
Also, I believe the Eastern Empire was protected by an Impenetrable wall in Constantinople… only destroyed by a new invention a thousand years later… huge cannons by the Ottomans hit the walls for weeks to finally break through.
Other differences:
Size of western empire was more spread out than the Eastern.
Eastern Empire were not romans from Italy but a mix of different folks… not sure exactly what that was.
Western Rome may have been more desirable place to conquer in Italy.. Huge infrastructure and history.
西方帝国不得不面对更多的日耳曼部落......这些部落并非无足轻重，因为到了今天，这些部落变成了法国、德国、尼德兰、奥地利和英国。
我不确定东方是否有像日耳曼人那样强大的民族部落。
另外，我相信东方帝国在君士坦丁堡有一堵坚不可摧的墙保护着......只是在一千年后被一项新的发明摧毁了......奥斯曼人的大炮在墙上打了好几个星期才最终突破了。
其他差异：
西方帝国的规模比东方帝国更加分散。
东部帝国不是来自意大利的罗马人，而是不同民族的混合体......不确定这到底应该称为什么。
因为拥有意大利，西罗马可能是更值得征服的地方。那里有巨大的基础设施和深厚的历史。
“I’m not sure the East had as powerful ethnic tribes as the Germanics.”
Depends. If we're counting just when there was still a WRE, the ERE was invaded “only” by the Goths, Vandals and Huns, who, as Alex said, ‘toured’ Greece then went West, while most of the other tribes just went over the Rhine into the WRE. In exchange they constantly had to fight with a peer or close to power, Parthia and later Persia, something that the WRE didn’t have to face.
After the WRE fell, whooo, boy. They had to face the Avars and later the Pechenegs. Then the Slavs. All the while fighting the Persians. Then the Arabs. Then the Cumans. Then the Turks. I’m also pretty sure that I’m missing a few.
So yeah, depends on the timefrx.
"我不确定东方是否有像日耳曼人那样强大的民族部落。"
这要看情况。如果我们只计算西罗马仍然存在的时候，东罗马"只是"被哥特人、汪达尔人和匈人入侵过，正如亚历克斯所说，他们"巡视"了希腊一番然后去了西方，而其他大多数部落只是越过莱茵河进入西罗马。作为交换，他们不得不不断地与同行或接近自身实力的强国帕提亚和后来的波斯作战，而这是西罗马所不必面对的。
至于西罗马灭亡后，芜湖，孩子。他们不得不面对阿瓦尔人和后来的佩切内格人。然后是斯拉夫人。在与波斯人作战的同时。然后是阿拉伯人。然后是库曼人。然后是土耳其人。我也很确定我漏掉了一些。
所以，是的，这取决于时间线。
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What about the wall though…
Rome didnt have this…
https://www.thebyzantinelegacy.com/theodosian-walls
I believe this was the main reason it didn't get sacked… nothing to do with money or military… it simply had a fortress with people inside.. and no one could come in uninvited…
那墙呢......？
罗马城可没有这个...
我相信这是罗马没有被洗劫的主要原因......与金钱或军事无关......它只是有一个堡垒，里面有人......而且没有人可以不请自来......
Well it takes a lot to support a city like Constantinople. Just having a really nice wall is not enough. You need a good political, economic, and millitary system too. Rome wasn't all that different than any modern nation. The same needs and issues existed.. although there really isn't any modern equivalent of the Germanic invasions as much as some people in politics want you to believe.
要支持像君士坦丁堡这样的城市，需要很多东西。仅仅拥有一个非常漂亮的城墙是不够的。你还需要一个良好的政治、经济和军事系统。罗马与任何现代国家并没有什么不同。同样的需求和问题是存在的......尽管有些政界人士希望你相信，现代人真的没有任何相当于日耳曼人入侵的情况。
Most people are always surprised when I mention that the Byzantine Empire is a modern invention. They saw themselves as Romans
当我提到“拜占庭帝国”是一个现代发明时，大多数人总是感到惊讶。其实他们把自己看作是罗马人。
But yet they spoke Greek and were orthodox.
但他们却说希腊语，普遍地。
And called their country Romania… (do not be confused with the modern construct)
并称他们的国家为罗马尼亚......（不要与现代的这个相混淆）
They spoke greek the same way people from all around the world speak English today.
他们说希腊语就像今天世界各地的人说英语一样。
“A religion dividing the population”
Care to elaborate?
"一个分裂人口的宗教"
愿意详细说明一下吗？
Just like today, Christianity has always been divisive, full off good people and zealots. It took centuries of “Noble" Rulers enforcing it, coupled with armies and bloodshed. Early codified into Catholicism, then the Orthodoxy split. Later.split including Protestant. All involved bloodshed.
就像今天一样，基督教一直是分裂的，充满了好人和狂热者。经过几个世纪的"高贵"统治者的强制执行，再加上军队和流血事件。早期被算作天主教，然后是东正教的分裂。后来又分裂为新教。所有这些都涉及到流血事件。
Excellent summation to which I would add the Eastern Roman emperors had the wealth to bribe the tribes to go west.
很好的总结，我想补充的是，东罗马的皇帝有足够的财富来贿赂各部落去西部。
And a impenetrable fortress..
As the city grew, the famous double line of the Theodosian Walls was built in the 5th century. Although the other sections of the walls were less elaborate, they were, when well-manned, almost impregnable for any medi besieger. They saved the city, and the Byzantine Empire with it, during sieges by the Avar-Sassanian coalition, Arabs, Rus', and Bulgars, among others. The advent of gunpowder siege cannons rendered the fortifications vulnerable, but cannon technology was not sufficiently advanced to capture the city on its own, and the walls could be repaired between reloading. Ultimately, the city fell from the sheer weight of numbers of the Ottoman forces on 29 May 1453 after a six-week siege.
还有一座坚不可摧的堡垒。
随着城市的发展，著名的双层狄奥多西城墙于5世纪建成。尽管城墙的其他部分没有那么精致，但在兵力充足的情况下，它们对任何中世纪的围攻者来说几乎是坚不可摧的。在阿瓦尔-萨珊联军、阿拉伯人、罗斯和保加利亚人等的围攻中，它们拯救了这座城市，也拯救了拜占庭帝国。火药攻城炮的出现使防御工事变得脆弱，但当时的大炮技术还不够先进，无法单独攻占该城，而且城墙可以在重新装弹之间进行修复。最终，经过六周的围攻，1453年5月29日，该城因奥斯曼帝国军队的人数优势而陷落。
, former Retired Dr
Constantine the Great recognised that it would be impossible to resist the encroachment of tribes from the direction of Russia. These tribes were themselves fleeing from forces in that direction.
Rome was indefensible to such large numbers, but he knew of a Greek town that sat on an important hub of trade routes which could tax the many merchants that moved through it and it could use the sea to help defend itself.
This Greek town, Byzantium, would become the new Rome and be called Constantinople, and because it’s defenses were so good, it would last until 1453.
君士坦丁大帝认识到，不可能抵御来自俄罗斯方向的部落的侵袭。这些部落本身也在逃离那个方向的部队。
罗马无法抵御如此庞大的数量，但他知道有一个希腊城镇位于贸易路线的重要枢纽上，可以向通过它的许多商人征税，而且它可以利用海洋来帮助保护自己。
这个希腊城镇，拜占庭，将成为新的罗马，被称为君士坦丁堡，由于它的防御能力很强，它持续到了1453年。
, studied at Southampton University
Obviously this is a complex answer, but to concentrate on the key factors.
The Byzantines had an effective and functioning state. Their system of government administration worked. It exploited agriculture and trade with enough efficiency to pay for an army and fortifications.
They had a culture and religion which was attractive and powerful enough to keep their people sufficiently motivated to fight for it. States can lose the will to live, like the old Soviet unx, but the Byzantines believed their culture and way of life were superior. Interestingly the Arab Conquests of the seventh and eighth centuries removed areas with substantial religious dissent an dvthus made Byzantium mire homogenous.
Byzantium survived three major crises:
The Avar/ Sassanian/Arab attack
The Seljuk assault
The Crusader conquest of 1204. Quite often a state dies whey it is weak and it has a strong external enemy. If it survives that it eventually undergoes a period of reform and strong leadership. Byzantium was lucky for a long time . Their luck ran out when they encountered the Ottomans who were on a rising curve, headquartered right next to them and then tens flies had a period of weak and divided government.
显然这是一个复杂的答案，所以只能集中说一些关键因素。
拜占庭人有一个有效的、运作良好的国家。他们的政府管理制度是有效的。它以足够的效率利用农业和贸易来支付军队和防御工事。
他们的文化和宗教有足够的吸引力和力量，使他们的人民有足够的动力去为之而战。国家是可以失去生存的意志的，就像旧苏联一样，但拜占庭人相信他们的文化和生活方式是优越的。有趣的是，七世纪和八世纪的阿拉伯征服将有大量宗教异议的地区清除，从而使拜占庭变得更加同质化了。
拜占庭经历了三次重大危机。
阿瓦尔人/萨珊人/阿拉伯人的攻击
塞尔柱人的攻击
1204年十字军的征服。一个国家往往在其弱小和有强大外敌的情况下死亡。如果它能幸存下来，它最终会经历一段改革和强有力的领导。拜占庭在很长一段时间内都很幸运。当他们遇到奥斯曼人时，他们的运气就用完了，奥斯曼人正处于上升期，大本营还就在他们旁边，然后自己还经历了一个软弱和分裂的政府时期。
, Classics student
WALLS. Constantinople is the most fortified city in the world at the time.
There was a single threat to the East at the time: Persia. Meanwhile, there was wave after wave of migration from Central Asia into Eastern Europe. These migrants kept going west, and the Romans had no strategy for how to incorporate them or satisfy their needs.
Navy. There is no navy to protect or resupply Rome; you’d have to sail up the Tiber, restricting traffic. Meanwhile, the straights of the Bosporus not only allow for rich trade from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean and vice-verse, but allow for a naval resupply when the city is threatened. The Ummayad and Abbasid attacks on Constantinople failed because the navy keep the supply lines clear.
The Pope. The Pope used the distance from Constantinople to more vigorously assert himself. Thus he had little control from Greece and often did what he pleased. If the current rulers of Rome displeased him, he could turn to their rivals. The Romans lost control of Rome!
Investment. Constantinople was heavily invested in, while Rome was allowed to decay. Constantine and his successors really abandoned Italy, as it ceased to be as lucrative as Greece. Rather than propping up a failing city, the Emperor invested in the more prosperous one.
1.围墙。君士坦丁堡是当时世界上最坚固的城市。
2.当时对东方的威胁只有一个。波斯。同时，有一波又一波的移民从中亚进入东欧。这些移民不断向西迁移，而罗马人对如何纳入他们或满足他们的需求没有任何策略。
3.海军。没有海军来保护或补给罗马；你必须沿着台伯河航行，限制了交通。同时，博斯普鲁斯海峡不仅允许从黑海到地中海的丰富贸易，而且允许在城市受到威胁时进行海军补给。伍麦叶王朝和阿巴斯王朝对君士坦丁堡的进攻之所以失败，是因为海军保持了供应线的畅通。
4.教皇。教皇利用与君士坦丁堡的距离，更有力地坚持自己的立场。因此，他几乎没有受到来自希腊的控制，经常为所欲为。如果罗马的现任统治者让他不高兴，他可以转向他们的对手。罗马人失去了对罗马的控制!
5.投资。君士坦丁堡得到了大量的投资，而罗马却被允许衰败。君士坦丁和他的继承人真正放弃了意大利，因为它不再像希腊那样有利可图。皇帝没有支持一个失败的城市，而是投资于更繁荣的城市。