日本袭击珍珠港的原因（二）
This is how Japan attacked Pearl Harbor according to flat earthers
译文简介
接第一篇，日本空袭珍珠港有来无回的原因。
正文翻译
接第一篇，日本空袭珍珠港有来无回的原因。
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We were the good guys! Imagine what Japan would have done given the opportunity!
(I hope the /s isn’t needed)
我们是好人！想象一下，如果有机会（珍珠港胜利），日本会怎么做！
This but unironically. The Japanese were brutal.
这一点也不讽刺，日本人很残忍。
Undoubtedly, but we weren’t exactly cuddly. It was a brutal war on all sides.
不错，我们并不可爱，但不管从哪里看，这都只是一场残酷的战争。
Look up the Nanjing Massacre. The Japanese were terrorists to say the least.
去看看南京大屠杀吧，日本人绝对可以被称为是恐怖分子。
Didn't we start that after it became a standard because Germany started carpet bombing Paris?
我们不是在德国地毯式轰炸巴黎之后，才开始反击的吗?
No, because unlike the Germans or Italians, the Japanese didn't retreat or surrender. They, for the very most part, fought until the death, as losing/surrendering was dishonorable, so much so that instead of surrendering, many opted to commit suicide.
Despite being slaughtered by advancing American forces, their determination to keep fighting was creating far more casualties for the Allies then what you saw in the European theatre.
This is one of the reasons given behind the decision to drop the H-Bomb A-Bomb in the end, rather than having to deal with the casualties of assaulting the Japanese capital.
Call it abhorrent if you will, the bombing of civilians, etc, but the Japanese weren't kind and cuddly to the peoples that they conquered, and the duty of the US military leadership was to minimize US casualties, and not worry so much about deaths on the Japanese side.
Just another example of why war is bad for all concerned.
不，和德国人和意大利人不同，日本人没有撤退或投降。在大多数情况下，他们战斗到死亡，因为对于日本人来说失败或投降是不光彩的事情，所以许多人选择切腹自杀而不是投降。
尽管他们被不断推进的美军屠杀，但他们依然继续战斗的决心，给盟军造成的伤亡，要比你在欧洲战场上看到的更多。
这（跟多的伤亡）才是最终决定投下氢弹的原因之一，而不是为了应对袭击日本首都的人员伤亡。
如果你愿意，你可以把轰炸平民的行为称为可憎的行为，但是日本人对他们征服的人民并不友善，也不可爱，美国军事长官的职责就是尽量减少美军的伤亡，而不是担心日本人的死亡。
为什么战争对所有参与者都不利？这就是另一个例子。
Exactly. The Japanese were savages when it came to brutality and aggression. Its just a travesty so many civilians had to die. I'm not sure I would have done much different in Truman's position aside from nuking actual cities. Supposedly the Russians were only a few weeks away from entering the pacific theater.
完全正确，日本人在暴行和侵略时是纯粹的野蛮人。而许多平民的牺牲也确实是一场悲剧。
如果我在杜鲁门的位置上，除了用核弹直接轰炸城市之外，我不确定我还会有其他选择，因为据说当时俄国人几周后就要进入太平洋战区了。
Civilian bombings in Japan were used as an attempt to get Japanese military to surrender before an expensive US land assault would begin. It was an attempt to demoralize the military and populace and put pressure on their leaders to finally surrender. Unfortunately due to matters of pride, the pressure did not work until after the atomic bombings took place and president Truman basically said "we will fuck you up like nobody on earth has ever been fucked up before." After having seen what the nukes could do, within about 16 hours, the Japanese emperor told the Japanese military that he was ready to surrender with minimal conditions.
The morality of all this is certainly questionable.
在美国发动昂贵的陆战之前，对日本的核弹轰炸只是为了逼迫日本军队投降。这是一种尝试挫败日本军队和民众士气，向日本领导人施加压力，最终迫使他们不战而降的手段。
可惜，由于日本自尊心问题，这种压力直到原子弹真正爆炸后才起了作用，杜鲁门总统基本上是说:“我们会把你干死，就像世界上曾经被你们干死的人一样。”
而在见识了核武器的威力后，在大约16个小时之内，日本天皇就告诉日本军队，他准备以最低条件投降。
There's also the fact that Stalin was getting ready to make a land invasion on Japan right as the bomb were dropped. And they probably preferred to surrender to the USA than to get occupied by Stalin.
还有一个事实是，在炸弹被投下的时候，斯大林准备对日本发动陆战，日本可能更愿意向美国投降，而不是被斯大林占领。
There was also Operation Gomorrah, the bombing of Hamburg, biggest aerial bombing in history at that time (2 years before bombing of Tokyo). It was so big it created hundreds meter high of fire tornado.
还有Operation Gomorrah行动，对Hamburg的轰炸，这是当时历史上最大的空中轰炸(在轰炸东京的2年前)。爆炸威力极大，甚至产生了数百米高的火旋风。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Or the firebombing of Dresden.
I think we do a disservice to ourselves by not making a point to teach people about the atrocities committed by all sides and the ugly evil of total war.
或者德累斯顿的轰炸。
我认为，如果我们不让人们知道各方所犯下的暴行，以及全面战争的丑陋邪恶，那就会对我们自己造成伤害。
in the sense it wasn't considered a war crime or in that it wasn't a terrible use of violence against a largely civilian target?
在某种意义上，它被认为不是针对平民目标的战争罪或者大屠杀？
I understand the firebombing of Japanese cities could be judged a warcrime. However, it did make clear the war was unwinnable and Japan was losing, despite the official government propaganda. And never forget what Japan was doing to unarmed civilians in China at this time.
我知道对日本城市的轰炸可以被判定为战争罪。
不过，当时的战局结果始终很清晰，哪怕日本政府进行了官方宣传，日本也不可能赢。
而且，永远不要忘记日本在二战时对手无寸铁的中国平民所做的一切。
Do you guys not know how many chinese the japanese killed?
你们不知道日本人杀了多少中国人吗？
Yeah they they committed many atrocities. What I am saying is while we learned about the rape of Nanking in history class, I knew nothing about US involvement in the japanese theater other than the atomic bombs.
是的，他们犯下了很多暴行。我想说的是，当我在历史课上了解了南京大屠杀时，除了原子弹，我对美国和日本之间的其他战争一无所知。
The worst part about is bombing is we didn’t have to. Japan was already surrendering but we had to show Russia our power so they didn’t get any ideas. The red army wasn’t a joke and we’ve never been bffs
最糟糕的是，我们根本没必要执行轰炸，日本已经投降了，但我们必须向俄罗斯展示我们的实力，这样他们才不会有其他想法。苏联红军可不是闹着玩的，和我们也从来不是好朋友。
Japan was already surrendering
Untrue. After the firebombings, the Allies made the Postdam Declaration. It was an ultimatum for Japan to accept unconditional surrender or be wiped off the face of the earth. The Allies received silence as a response, we interpreted the silence as rejection and dropped the nukes. Then we asked again. They accepted 16 hours later.
What you may be thinking of is that Japan was ready to surrender but never made it public. They publicly made the stance that they would fight down to the last man, woman and child while secretly trying to befriend the Soviet unx and get their aid in negotiating better surrender terms. The USSR never came to the rescue and Japan kept their "fight to the bitter end" public stance, responding to surrender demands with silence, until Fat Boy and Little Man were dropped.
There are even some Japanese that blame their own government for the devastation and sued the government (unsuccessfully) for fighting the war recklessly.
日本已经投降了？
不对！在轰炸之前，盟军发表了《Postdam宣言》，这是一份最后通牒，要求日本无条件投降，否则就从地球上消失。日本的沉默是一种回应，我们把沉默理解为拒绝，然后扔了核武器，然后我们又问了一遍，16个小时后日本才投降。
你可能会说，日本其实已经准备投降，但还没有公开而已。但他们公开表明了立场，他们将战斗到最后一个男人、女人和孩子，日本表面谈判，寻求更好的投降条件，但同时暗地里试图与苏联结盟，得到他们的帮助。可惜苏联从未帮助他们，日本则一直保持“战斗到最后”的公开姿态，以沉默回应投降要求，直到胖子和小男孩被扔下去。
后来，甚至有一些日本人指责他们自己的政府导致了轰炸发生，并起诉政府(没有成功)。
You don’t ask the people winning for surrender. Here’s a fact for you, the Japanese civilians didn’t get a chance to surrender or notice that bombs were about to fall on them.
你不能让渴望胜利的人民投降。再告诉你一个事实，日本平民根本没有机会投降，也不知道炸弹即将落在他们身上。
I don't think you get it. Japan needed to accept surrender, which means laying down arms and allowing occupation so terms of surrender can be enforced. They refused.
You don’t ask the people winning for surrender
Sure you do. If you see that you've been defeated, you can inform the enemy that you're ready to negotiate the terms of your surrender. This has happened countless times in history, so many times that there is a universal symbol of doing so which is raising a white flag.
You're suggesting we just stop attacking. What happens if you do that is they muster their strength and continue fighting after they've done so. That is obviously not an option.
我觉得你还没明白。日本一旦接受投降，就意味着他们要放下武器，允许军队占领，这样投降条件才能得到彻底执行。但他们拒绝了。
你应该明白一个道理。如果你知道自己已经被打败了，你应该告诉敌人你已经准备好谈判投降的条件了。这种情况在历史上发生过无数次，甚至有一种普遍的象征，那就是升起一面白旗。
但你是建议我们停止攻击。如果真按你说的这样做了，你认为会发生什么呢？日本人会聚集他们的力量，在我们停止攻击后继续战斗。这显然不是一个好选择。
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/it-wasnt-necessary-to-hit-them-with-that-awful-thing-why-dropping-the-a-bombs-was-wrong
Fighting with guns and dropping atom bombs are two completely different beats but here’s a source for you. Have a nice day.
用枪战斗和扔原子弹是两个完全不同的事情，自己看链接（我的观点），祝你愉快。
What are you even talking about? I didn’t say we didn’t call for their surrender, I said they were already defeated and the use of atom bombs was overkill. Dude, take a chill pill？
你到底在说什么？我不是说我们不要求他们投降，我是说他们已经被打败了，而使用原子弹的杀伤力太大了。伙计，冷静点
I didn’t say we didn’t call for their surrender
Then you didn't say this 2 comments ago?
Japan was already surrendering but we had to show Russia our power so they didn’t get any ideas
Japan was already surrendering or they weren't. Make up your mind
我没说我们没有要求他们投降
那你之前没有说过这两个评论吗？
日本已经投降了，但我们必须向俄罗斯展示我们的实力，这样他们就不会有其他想法
日本要么已经投降，要么还没有投降。
做个决定吧（两个杠精，后面不翻译了）
So the person you're replying to is right and wrong. Japan was open to surrendering. They were still actively at war.
First, I'm on mobile right now and limited on time, but here's a good source to start with. It's not the end all, but if you're generally interested it will point you down the hole. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-atomic-bomb/2015/07/31/32dbc15c-3620-11e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html
So like you were saying the official narrative is that we had to drop the bombs to save millions of American lives. This simply isn't true. There was a Japanese General and I can't remember who but they said something along the lines of What's the difference between 1 plane with 1 bomb or 1000 planes with 1000 bombs
Only have about 10 minutes so this will be quick, sorry. Google the Soviet-Japanese War and US-Japan Peace talks for more info on this next bit. Also look of Soviet-US Joint War Declaration talks. So Japan had very limited resources at this point in the war. They knew they'd lose a 2 front war with the Soviets and US. The Soviets were pushing the US for a joint declaration in writing. The US refused. In the Japan US Peace talks, the main fall point was Japan wanted to keep their emperor. The US refused, but still let them after the bombs. The US didn't want to cede power to the Soviets when the war ended. So they had to end the war as quick as possible on their terms. Hence, boom. The US attempted to gain leverage with the new powerful bomb. It worked a little, and only until the Soviets had their own.
The bombs were not needed to win the war against Japan. That would have happened in time with minimal loss of US life. The bombs were a tool to further global political influence.
所以你回复的人是对的还是错的？日本愿意投降？他们仍在积极交战？
首先，我现在使用手机，而且时间有限，但这里有一个很好的资料来源……链接
就像你说的，官方的说法是我们逼不得已，不得不投下炸弹来拯救数百万美国人的生命。但这根本不是真相，有一位日本将军，我不记得是谁了，但是他说了一些类似的话，比如一架飞机有一枚炸弹和1000架飞机有1000枚炸弹有什么区别等等
看看苏日战争和美日和平会谈的更多信息，再看看美苏联合宣战谈判。所以当时日本的资源非常有限，他们知道他们会输掉与苏联和美国的两场前线战争。而苏联敦促美国以书面形式发表联合声明，但美国拒绝了。
而在日美和谈中，主要的争论点是日本想要保留他们的天皇，美国又拒绝了。但在原子弹爆炸后，美国同意了。
战争结束时，美国不想把控制日本的权力交给苏联。因此，他们必须按照自己的利益尽快结束战争。因此，核弹，砰！
美国试图利用这种新武器核弹来获得更大的影响力，直到苏联有了自己的核弹，这种做法才开始失效。
所以对日战争的胜利，其实并不需要这些炸弹。胜利终究会发生，扔核弹只是为了让美国人的伤亡降至最低。核弹还是扩大全球政治影响力的工具。
No problem. Also meant to note, because it seems to be forgotten by most, the US had Allies on the Western front but were virtually alone in the Pacific. The US loses tremendous leverage if the Soviets can say they helped against Japan too.
Anyways, back to work. Hope you have a good day and enjoy the dive in to this topic as much as I did.
你说的没有问题。不过我还想指出一点，美国在西线有盟友，但在太平洋上几乎是孤军作战，因为太平洋似乎被大多数人遗忘了。如果苏联说他们也攻占了日本，美国将失去在太平洋的巨大影响力。
Very interested in your source for this?
我很想知道你的消息是从哪来的？