为什么中国古代的王子/公主不去国外学习和提高自己？-网帖翻译-龙腾网

Gwydion Madawc Williams, Read a lot about this
Did anyone else do this?
Mostly they stuck to their own traditions. The Classical Romans learnt a lot from the Greeks, but mostly by bringing teachers to them.
The only foreign knowledge that interested any Chinese was Buddhist teaching. Some monks went as far as India, most notably Xuanzang, whose achievements were also mythologised as Journey to the West.
See also Traditional China Resisted Modernisation, about why they were unready to change.

有没有其他人这样做过？
大多数情况下，他们会坚持自己的传统。古罗马人从希腊人那里学到了很多东西，但主要是通过给他们带来老师学习的。
中国人唯一感兴趣的外国知识是佛教。一些僧侣甚至远赴印度，最著名的是玄奘，他的成就也被神话为《西游记》。
另见传统中国抵制现代化，关于他们为什么不准备改变（链接）。

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Song Cheng (孙辰), machine translation
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

In the first year of AD, the Chinese emperor ruled and feudal land area reached 6.09 million square kilometers. More than the total area of all countries in Western Europe. Both the people and the king on this land are the courtiers of the Chinese emperor.
I want to say that it is too big, and the journey abroad is too far away. The ancient traffic was not developed, so the Chinese emperor did not form a tradition of far-reaching. Today, the area of many well-known countries is still far less than a province in China. There are dozens of provinces in China.

公元元年，中国皇帝统治的土地面积达到了609万平方公里，超过西欧所有国家的总和。这片土地上的人民和国王都是中国皇帝的臣民。
我想说的是，它太大了，，出国的路途太远了。古代交通不发达，所以中国皇帝没有形成影响深远的传统。如今，许多知名国家的面积仍然远远小于中国的一个省，而中国有几十个省。

In the first year of AD, China has used a mature writing system for more than 1,500 years. In 1500 years, Chinese characters were lonely. Chinese people with high school education or above can still read books from two thousand years ago. Until more than 2,000 years ago, the Chinese emperor still could not find out which country has a writing system. Including the most powerful enemy of China at that time, the Huns, they did not have words. These neighboring countries have no text, and how can there be more advanced culture and knowledge than China? Thus, the Chinese emperor did not form the practice of studying abroad. The irony is that many of China's neighbors have used Chinese culture in their entirety and used Chinese characters for thousands of years. Their unique text appeared very late, but now they claim that their civilization is older than China... but their historical books are all recorded by Chinese characters.

公元元年，中国已经使用了1500多年的成熟书写系统。1500年来，汉字是孤独的。中国高中以上学历的人现在仍然可以阅读两千年前的书。直到两千多年前，中国的皇帝还不知道哪个国家有文字系统。包括当时中国最强大的敌人匈奴，他们都没有文字可以记载。这些周边国家没有文字，怎么会有比中国更先进的文化和知识呢？因此，中国皇帝没有形成出国留学的习惯。具有讽刺意味的是，中国的许多邻国几千年来都在整体上使用中国文化和汉字。他们自己独特的文字出现得很晚，但现在他们却声称他们的文明比中国更古老.........而他们的史书都是用汉字记录的。

In the first year of AD, China’s population has exceeded 60 million. This is similar to today's British or French population. There is no doubt that, like today's China, it is the country with the largest population in the world. The surrounding countries usually have a population of several hundred thousand. The emperor of China is very busy. Instead of just enjoying authority and taxation, he faces the challenge of managing 60 million people in a stable and stable manner in an era of very low productivity. We must know that China’s governance model over the past 2000 years has been centralized, not aristocratic feudalism. The emperor is responsible to everyone of the 60 million nationals. They are too busy, otherwise the regime will perish. For more than two thousand years, China has gone through 25 major dynasties and hundreds of small regimes. They don't have time to study abroad, and they can't learn from foreigners how to govern a country of this size.

公元元年，中国的人口已超过6000万。这与今天的英国或法国人口相似。毫无疑问，和今天的中国一样，中国是世界上人口最多的国家。中国周边的国家通常只有几十万人口。中国的皇帝很忙，在生产力极低的时代，他不是仅仅享受着权力和税收，还面临着以稳定的方式统治6000万人的挑战。要知道，中国2000多年的治理模式是集权的，不是贵族封建式的，皇帝要对6000万国民中的每一个人负责。他们太忙了，否则政权就会灭亡。两千多年来，中国经历了25个主要王朝和数百个小政权。所以他们没有时间出国留学，也无法向外国人学习如何治理这样一个规模的国家。

More than 2,000 years ago, the Chinese royal family formed a model that did not go abroad to study, and continued into the 20th century. In fact, until the last dynasty in China, in the late Qing Dynasty, Asia did not have a more advanced country than China. China is only being bullied by Western powers, not neighboring countries. When Japan learns from the West, realizes industrialization, and defeats China. China is already the penultimate emperor in office. He is only in his 20s, and he did not have any children until his death in his 30s. But his brother of the same family, named ZAIFENG, has been sent to Europe to study. The last emperor of China was a three-year-old child. He is the son of ZAIFENG. However, at this time, the emperor system has been unpopular in China.

2000多年前，中国皇室形成了不出国留学的模式，并一直延续到20世纪。事实上，直到中国的最后一个王朝，在清末，亚洲也没有一个比中国更先进的国家。中国只是被西方列强欺负，而不是被邻国欺负。当日本向西方学习，实现工业化并打败中国时，中国已经到了最后一个王朝倒数第二任皇帝了。他只有20多岁，直到30多岁去世时才有孩子，但他有一个名叫载沣的同族兄弟已经被送到欧洲学习。中国的末代皇帝是一个三岁的孩子，他是载沣的儿子。然而，在这个时候，皇帝制在中国已经不受欢迎了。

China before the 10th century was actually very active in learning about external things. China was so huge before 2000, but still learns the horse domestication technology and steel refining technology in Central Asia at all costs. China’s complete closure is probably a matter of nearly three hundred years. Of course, when China reforms and opens again, although many people are unwilling to believe in China's achievements, you still see that China has not been China 100 years ago in the past 40 years.

10世纪以前的中国，其实在学习外部事物上非常活跃。中国在2000年以前是如此庞大，但仍然不惜一切代价学习了中亚的驯马技术和炼钢技术。中国完全闭关锁国可能是近三百年的事情。当然，当中国改革开放的时候，虽然很多人不愿意相信中国的成就，但是你仍然可以看到，在过去的40年里，中国已经不是100年前的中国了。

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Anderson Lin

The closest thing to this was that the members of the Aisin Gioro clan did study overseas during the last decades of Qing. The most famous example is Aisin Gioro Liangbi (良弼) who studied military in Japan for four years. But I suppose this is not what the question means by “ancient”.

Short of that I cannot recall any occasion where princes/princesses of a Chinese dynasty went to foreign countries to “learn and improve” themselves. Even in the rare cases where a Chinese empire was forced to send hostages to a powerful neighbor, it never used this as the pretext.

与此最接近的是，爱新觉罗家族的成员在清朝最后几十年确实在海外留学，最著名的例子是在日本学习了四年军事的爱新觉罗良弼，但我想这不是问题所说的“古代”的意思。
除此之外，我想不起有哪个中国朝代的王子/公主去外国“学习和提高”自己的经历。即使在极少数情况下，一个中华帝国被迫将人质交给一个强大的邻国，它也从未以此为借口。

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Andy Liu
You can’t really blame Chinese on this, during her 2000 years’s history after Qin dynasty, China tried several times to explore if there are any other civilizations that could be on par with their level of civilization.
They sailed to Japan, and realized they were far more primitive and weaker than China at the time , and didn’t even have their own written language. Beyond Japan is ocean that no one could cross at that time. Chinese believed the earth was flat surrounded by oceans while the four corners of earth were on the back of four giant turtles.So China felt no threats from the east at all, who would think that sailing for 10 years maybe you could find another continent?

这真的不能怪中国人，在秦朝之后的2000年历史中，中国曾多次尝试探索是否还有可以与他们的文明水平相提并论的其他文明。
他们航行到日本，发现当时的日本远比中国原始和弱小，那里甚至没有自己的文字。在日本之外是当时没有人可以跨越的海洋。中国人认为地球是平的，四面环海，而地球的四个角都在四只巨龟的背上。所以中国根本感觉不到来自东方的威胁，谁会想到航行10年有可能会发现另一个大陆？

To China’s north , there were only babarians and ice. Merchants from the north also tells China there were Nothing there to see or learn.
To China’s south, China tried their best to sail all the way down to Philippines and found nothing interesting and turned west to Eastern Africa 100 years before the whites did it. Unfortunately for china , General Zhenghe spent 7 times exploring the world and the most interesting thing he found was long neck deer(giraffes)

在中国的北方，只有野蛮人和冰雪。来自北方的商人也告诉中国人那里没有什么东西可以看，也没有什么可以学。
到了中国的南方，中国拼尽全力一路航行到菲律宾，也没有发现任何有趣的东西。在白人之前的100年，中国就向西航行到了东非。对中国来说不幸的是，郑和将军花了7次探索世界，他发现的最有趣的东西是长颈鹿。

To China’s west, Chinese knew from very beginning there were giant countries like Persian empire and Indian empires. About 1500 years ago, China sent out Zhangqian tried to establish contact with Persian , he started out with 100 guys and spent 18 years in totaland came back with only 2 men left. Then later the famous Xuanzang spent about 20 years went to India after went through multiple Barbarians’ territory and desserts.both of them and many other explorers concluded there were endless deserts between Chinese and those “barbarians” far away. Since both Han and Tang dynasties were probably the strongest peirod of Chinese history, what they saw in India and maybe Iran were not really more advanced , if not worse,than their own civilizations.

在中国的西方，中国人从一开始就知道有波斯帝国和印度帝国这样的大国。大约1500年前，中国派出张骞试图与波斯人建立联系。他从100人开始，总共花了18年时间，回来时只剩下2人。后来，著名的玄奘花了大约20年的时间去了印度，经过了许多野蛮人的领地和沙漠。他们和其他许多探险家都得出结论：中国人和那些遥远的“野蛮人”之间有无尽的沙漠。由于汉唐两代都可能是中国历史上最强大的时期，他们在印度和伊朗所看到的并没有比他们自己的文明更先进，甚至还要更糟糕。

From their exploration of the world limited by their technology at that time, So it was natural for China to conclude that no other civilizations could threaten their survival thus nothing to learn at all.
One more very important reason is that China reached a very high level of civilizations earlier than many other civilizations and the changes of life prior to 1840 were very little. Though their multiple attempts to explore their world and based on their own comprehensive records of history, they might conclude that the rest of the world were too primitive and could not develop to a level that China needed to learn and look up to.

从他们对当时受技术限制的世界的探索来看，中国自然会得出这样的结论：没有其他文明可以威胁到他们的生存，因此根本没有什么可学习的。
另一个非常重要的原因是，中国比许多其他文明更早达到很高的文明水平，1840年以前的生活变化也很小。尽管他们多次尝试探索自己的世界，并根据自己全面的历史记录，但他们可能会得出这样的结论：世界其他地方太原始，无法发展到中国需要学习和仰望的水平。

Marco Polo wrote a damn imaginary and exaggerated book about how China was way more advanced than any Europeans could dream of, and unfortunately for China, no one told China what a more advanced civilizations is like until 1800s.
Countries sent students to BETTER countries to learn .Like Japan sent students to China during Tang Dynasty, and to the west in the 1700s, China sent students to US since 1979. For a country that unfortunately thought herself the greatest country out there, Chinese never felt the need to learn from others.

马可波罗写了一本虚构而夸张的书，讲述了中国如何比任何欧洲人想象的都要先进得多，不幸的是，对中国来说，直到 1800 年代，才有人告诉中国更先进的文明是什么样的。
国家总是把学生送到更好的国家去学习，就像日本在唐朝派学生到中国，在 1700 年代派学生到西方，中国从 1979 年开始派学生到美国一样。对于一个不幸地认为自己是最伟大的国家的国家，中国人从来没有觉得有必要向他人学习。

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Qi Chen
On topic of the shape of earth, the ancient Chinese knows earth isn’t flat since 230BC. They have to build large scale dam and aqueducts, which require you to factor earth’s curvature into consideration.
However, they couldn’t confirm that earth is round because pacific ocean is hard to sail through and going the other direction is just takes too long.

关于地球的形状，古代中国人从公元前230年就知道地球不是平的。因为他们必须建造大型水坝和渡槽，这需要考虑地球的曲率。
然而，他们无法确认地球是圆的，因为太平洋很难航行通过，而朝另一个方向航行需要很长时间。

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Michael Chow
Your account of China’s foreign relations has significant inaccuracies. For eg. SE Asia (Philippines) and China had extensive trade of goods and ideas for over a millennium.
Marco Polo came to China as Europe was emerging from the dark ages. China’s naval tech at this time was centuries ahead of Europe. China was the global tech leader for centuries around this time.
You’ll want to watch: Peter Nolan on China's silk road strategy Keynote held on 7th April 2016 at the wiiw Spring Seminar in Vienna. Peter Nolan is Professor at Cambridge University.
The whole lecture is great. He addresses some of the issues I mentioned around 19:30 min.
I’m guessing you’re from HK?

你对中国的外交关系的描述有很多不准确之处。例如，东南亚（菲律宾）和中国在一千多年的时间里进行了广泛的商品和思想交换。
马可波罗来到中国时，欧洲正从黑暗时代崛起。当时中国的海军技术比欧洲领先了几个世纪。大约在这个时候，几个世纪以来，中国一直是全球科技的领导者。
你应该看看：彼得·诺兰（Peter Nolan）于2016年4月7日在维也纳WIW春季研讨会上就中国丝绸之路战略发表的主题演讲。彼得·诺兰是剑桥大学的教授。
整个讲座很棒，他谈到了我在19:30左右提到的一些问题。
我猜你是香港人吧？

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Wasu Koysiripong
It is quite scary to think that we might be now in the same situation as China back then, i.e. all the planets within our reach have no civilization for us to learn from and someday we might be discovered by a much more advanced civilization from some planets far away.

我们现在的处境可能与当时的中国一样，也就是说，我们所能接触到的所有行星都没有可供我们学习的文明，有一天我们可能会被来自遥远星球的更先进的文明所发现，这是相当可怕的。

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Ethan Jia
Let me continue this imagination. When the aliens came, the United Nations tried to unify the global political, economic and military forces against the external enemies. However, there is a bunch of virtuous guys who believe that the damned humans are destroying the earth, that humans have original SINS and that humans need to be judged. So they brought in aliens to judge humans.

让我继续这个想象。当外星人到来时，联合国试图团结全球政治、经济和军事力量对抗外部敌人。然而，有一群善良的人相信，该死的人类正在毁灭地球，人类有原罪，人类需要被审判。所以他们带了外星人来审判人类。

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Gloucera Wingardium
and until the British and later the 8 powerful countries invaded China, China never even knew there were such thing as a more advanced country.

直到英国和后来的八国联军入侵中国，中国才知道还有更先进的国家。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

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Vivian MS
…….tbh it seems like you’ve read some novels set in an ancient China setting. There are elements that involve some bits of history but after all they are just novels not serious history books.

……看来你读过一些以中国古代为背景的小说，因为有些因素涉及一些历史片段，但毕竟它们只是小说而不是严肃的历史书籍。

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ChewWei Yoo
Seriously,The recording of chinese history is the most complete in the world.It is never interrupted for 3,000 years. Some emperors might juggled the reacoding of coups,but mostly is creditable.

Because chinese trust in 敬天法古（Reverence to heaven And Learn from ancestors）

Just ask some historian,they would agree with it.

说真的，中国历史的记载是世界上最完整的，3000年来从未间断过。一些皇帝可能会在政变的记载上耍花招，但大部分都是可信的。
因为中国人相信：敬天法古（崇敬上天，向祖先学习）
去问问一些历史学家，他们会同意这一点的。

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此条印度人回，自删

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Andy Liu
Yes, but more like different rather than more advanced. And because xuanzang went through so many troubles to get there, it makes cultural exchange between China and India way too difficult. Thus, Chinese knew India was a powerful country beyond Tibet but never established any regular contact channels.
If China had some regular contacts with India , I believe the two countries would have had some bloodiest war throughout history.

是的，但更像是不同，而不是更高级的文明。因为玄奘经历了很多麻烦才到达那里，这使得中印之间的文化交流变得非常困难。因此，中国人知道印度是西藏以外的一个强大的国家，但从未建立过任何定期的联系渠道。
如果中国与印度有一些定期接触，我相信两国会发生历史上最血腥的战争。

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Thusal Ttb
I don’t think there would have been war. The Indians thought they were the most civilised. The Chinese thought they were the most civilised. They two peoples would have fucked each other into genetic assimilation. Dont’t you think?

我不认为会有战争。因为印第安人认为他们是最文明的，中国人也认为他们是最文明的。这两个民族会相互结合，导致基因同化。你不觉得吗？

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Hintivitim Ocim

王玄策 - 搜索结果 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

As the ambassador of Tang Empire, he led the troops of Tang’s subsidiary countries(Tubo gave 1200 soldiers, and later gave 8000 soldiers.) to attack Harsha Empire and made north of India into pieces. The Emperor of Harsha Empire was arrested by Wang Xuance due to his blasphemy to the Heaven Emperor of Tang Empire and sent to the Capital Chang’an.
His charge was to detain the passing ambassadors of the Tang Empire.

算了，太打击人了(逃
王玄策 - 搜索结果 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书（链接）
作为唐朝的大使，他率领唐朝附属国家的军队（吐蕃派了1200名士兵，后来又派了8000名士兵）进攻戒日王朝（Harsha Empire），并将印度北部夷为平地。戒日王朝皇帝因亵渎唐朝天皇而被王玄策逮捕，并被送往首都长安。
他的罪名是扣留路过的唐朝大使。
算了，太打击人了(逃

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Chunxiao He

哈哈哈，印度人太爱吹牛了，没办法，只有打他们脸。

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Hintivitim Ocim

这沙雕要是和我扯史料我都有一坨，就是他们看不懂。估计印度正儿八经的史书不多(逃
[1] 《资治通鉴·卷第一百九十九·唐纪十五》：会尸罗逸多卒，国中大乱，其臣阿罗那顺自立，发胡兵攻玄策；玄策帅从者三十人与战，力不敌，悉为所擒，阿罗那顺尽掠诸国贡物。
[2] 《资治通鉴·卷第一百九十九·唐纪十五》：玄策脱身宵遁，抵吐蕃西境，以书征邻国兵，吐蕃遣精锐千二百人、泥婆国遣七千馀骑赴之。
[3] 《旧唐书》卷一百九十八列传第一百四十八：先是遣右率府长史王玄策使天竺，其四天竺国王咸遣使朝贡。会中天竺王尸罗逸多死，国中大乱，其臣那伏帝阿罗那顺篡立，乃尽发胡兵以拒玄策。玄策从骑三十人与胡御战，不敌，矢尽，悉被擒。胡并掠诸国贡献之物。玄策乃挺身宵遁，走至吐蕃，发精锐一千二百人，并泥婆罗国七千余骑，以从玄策。玄策与副使蒋师仁率二国兵进至中天竺国城，连战三日，大破之，斩首三千余级，赴水溺死者且万人，阿罗那顺弃城而遁，师仁进擒获之。虏男女万二千人，牛马三万余头匹。于是天竺震惧，俘阿罗那顺以归。
[4] 《旧唐书》卷三本纪第三：“（贞观二十二年）四月甲寅，碛外蕃人争牧马出界，上亲临断决，然后咸服。丁巳，右武候将军梁建方击松外蛮，下其部落七十二所。五月庚子，右卫率长史王玄策击帝那伏帝国，大破之，获其王阿罗那顺及王妃、子等，虏男女万二千人、牛马二万余以诣阙。
[5] 《新唐书》卷二百二十一上列传第一百四十六上：遣右卫率府长史王玄策使其国，以蒋师仁为副；未至，尸罗逸多死，国人乱，其臣那伏帝阿罗那顺自立，发兵拒玄策。时从骑才数十，战不胜，皆没，遂剽诸国贡物。玄策挺身奔吐蕃西鄙，檄召邻国兵。吐蕃以兵千人来，泥婆罗以七千骑来，玄策部分进战茶镈和罗城，三日破之，斩首三千级，溺水死万人。阿罗那顺委国走，合散兵复阵，师仁禽之，俘斩千计。馀众奉王妻息阻乾陀卫江，师仁击之，大溃，获其妃、王子，虏男女万二千人，杂畜三万，降城邑五百八十所。东天竺王尸鸠摩送牛马三万馈军，及弓、刀、宝缨络。迦没路国献异物，并上地图，请老子象。玄策执阿罗那顺献阙下。
[6] 《资治通鉴·卷第一百九十九·唐纪十五》：会尸罗逸多卒，国中大乱，其臣阿罗那顺自立，发胡兵攻玄策；玄策帅从者三十人与战，力不敌，悉为所擒，阿罗那顺尽掠诸国贡物。玄策脱身宵遁，抵吐蕃西境，以书征邻国兵，吐蕃遣精锐千二百人、泥婆国遣七千馀骑赴之。玄策与其副蒋师仁帅二国之兵，进至中天竺所居茶馎和罗城，连战三日，大破之，斩首三千馀级，赴水溺死者且万人。阿罗那顺弃城走，更收馀众，还与师仁战；又破之，擒阿罗那顺。馀众奉其妃及王子，阻乾陀卫江，师仁进击之，众溃，获其妃及王子，虏男女万二千人。于是天竺响震，城邑聚落降者五百八十馀所，俘阿罗那顺以归。以玄策为朝散大夫。

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此条印度人回，自删

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Hintivitim Ocim
oh, the ccp member who lived in more than 1000 years ago.
Everything could be connected with ccp, your logic is exciting.
And here I just pointed out there were some wars between The Heaven Empire and India, are you too sensitive?

哦，生活在一千多年前的中共党员。
一切都可能与共产党有关，你的逻辑真令人兴奋。
在这里我只是指出天朝和印度之间有一些战争，你是不是太敏感了？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

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此条印度人回，自删
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

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Hintivitim Ocim
Yes, This is indeed a surprise attack. So Wang was only finally promoted to a fifth rank official by the Son of the Heaven. And because of the confusion caused by Wang Xuanze, Tubo was no longer hindered by India, and became the main threat to the Heaven Empire. It can be said that the loss outweigh the gains.

是的，这确实是一次突然袭击。所以，王最终被天子提拔为五等官。而由于王玄策造成的混乱，吐蕃不再受到印度的掣肘，从而变成了天朝的主要威胁。这可以说得不偿失。

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Xane Feng
Which is probably why they were willing to lend Wang troops in the first place.

这可能就是为什么他们一开始就愿意借兵给王玄策。

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此条印度人回，自删

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Praveen Kumar Singh
Indian civilization was far more developed than Chinese civilization, during that time.

在那个时期，印度文明远比中国文明发达。