经济合作与发展组织报告称，日本学习科学的女性比例最低
Japan has lowest share of women studying science: OECD report
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网友：不奇怪。我在一所私立女子高中工作，我觉得每年不到四分之一毕业生进入理工科领域。
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Bebopo90
Not surprising. I work at a private girls' high school and I would say roughly a quarter of our graduates go into STEM fields on a yearly basis, if not fewer.
不奇怪。我在一所私立女子高中工作，我觉得每年不到四分之一毕业生进入理工科领域。
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That sounds like a lot
这听起来很多
What are you and your colleagues doing to address this?
你和你的同事们正在做什么来解决这个问题？
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Why do you frx it like it's a problem that have to be addressed?
为什么你把它当作是一个必须要解决的问题？
Because the article in question and nearly everything written on the subject in the last 40 years frxs it like a problem that needs to be addressed.
因为引用的这篇文章和过去40年中关于这个主题的几乎所有文章，都把它当成一个需要解决的问题。
It does need to be addressed. Lots of girls do briliantly in STEM subjects but choose a different route due to tradition and expectation. Teachers, professors, and academic counselors are in the best position to support these girls, i know my teachers were a big part of me choosing engineering. Which is great because I would have been miserable in a non-STEM career and we need lots more electrical engineers. So yes it is a problem that needs to be addressed in school, colleges, and workplaces.
这确实需要解决。许多女孩在理工课程中表现出色，但由于传统和期望，她们选择了其他道路。老师、教授和学术顾问是支持这些女孩的最佳人选，比如我的老师就是我选择工程学的重要因素。这很好，因为如果我从事非理工职业我会很痛苦，而且我们需要更多的电气工程师。所以，是的，这是一个需要在学校、大学和工作场所解决的问题。
Women get prefential treatment when it comes to job huntings as engineers of STEM field, as they say female students of STEM field are invincible in job huntings. So as a woman, choosing STEM field is huge plus for career prospective, what preventing women choosing STEM field is gender stereotype such as women are not good at math/science
女性工程师在理工领域求职时会获得优待，因为她们说理工领域的女学生在求职中是无敌的。所以作为一名女性，选择理工领域对职业前景有很大好处，阻止女性选择理工领域的是对女性的刻板印象，比如女性不擅长数学、科学等。
Does it really matter in Japan? Seems like you can study whatever you want completely unrelated to your later work with few exceptions. I’ve heard everything from people who study literature ending up in IT engineering, biology majors becoming bank tellers etc.
That itself is a problem but the income and career gap in Japan is not coming from what they study in university.
这在日本真的重要吗？你可以学习任何你想学的东西，哪怕与你以后的工作完全无关，除了少数例外。我听过很多人说过，学习文学的人最后选择了IT工程，生物专业的人后来成为了银行出纳员等等。
这本身就是一个问题，但日本的收入和职业差距并不是来自他们在大学里所学的东西。
THIS. I worked at an engineering company near Tokyo as an application specialist and on my team were Japanese people with English literature or world history degrees.
Many companies rather hire blank slates with perfect track records they can use wherever they want rather than people who are already specialized. I personally witnessed a hiring decision where they chose an English literature graduate from Todai over someone who actually had an Engineering degree from a small prefectural university.
我在东京附近的一家工程公司担任应用专家，我的团队里有一些拥有英语文学或世界历史学位的日本人。
许多公司宁愿雇佣拥有完美履历的非专业员工，他们可以安排在任何岗位上，而不是雇佣已经有经验的员工。我亲眼看到了一次招聘决定，他们选择了一个东大的英语文学专业的毕业生，而不是一个从一所小型县立大学获得工程学学位的人。
There is perhaps more flexibility than in other countries, but you're not going to become a leading engineer, scientist, etc after taking an international studies major in uni
这也许比其他国家更灵活，但在大学里选择国际研究专业之后，你不可能成为一流的工程师、科学家之类的
That might be true but that's not what we are talking about here. We are just talking about Japan having a low share of women in STEM.
这可能是真的，但这不是我们要讨论的主题。我们只是在讨论日本女性在理工领域的比例很低。
I'm responding to your suggestion that that it doesn't matter how many women are studying stem because jobs are mismatched to education. That is true, in that often international studies people will be in marketing, or economics majors in hr, there may be plenty of self-taught programmers or accounting people, etc. But it is extremely rare for someone without a stem degree to get in to a hard science or engineering job.
我是在回复你的看法，有多少女性学习理工科并不重要，因为工作和教育不匹配。这是真的，因为通常国际研究专业的人会去市场营销，或者经济学专业的会去人资，可能会有很多自学成才的程序员或会计，但是，对于没有理工学位的人来说，进入硬科学或工程领域岗位是极其罕见的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Yes. This is the most bizarre thing about Japan I think. I’ve seen someone mention in a post somewhere that Japan produces generalists, not specialists. People study whatever they want, go into a company without any expertise in a particular area, their work tasks aren’t clear and are very general and people rotate to different departments every couple of years or so.
是的。我认为这是日本最奇怪的事情。我在某个地方看到有人发帖说日本培养的是通才，而不是专才。人们想学什么就学什么，进入一家公司前没有特定领域的专业知识，他们的工作任务不明确，非常笼统，人们每隔几年就会轮换到不同的部门。
That sounds like something I might have commented/posted before. Yes, that is accurate.
I am still trying to figure out how that allowed Japan to be world leader in manufacturing (think Toyota). I wonder how you can achieve the high level of manufacturing with just generalists.
这听起来像是我以前评论过的帖子。是的，这是对的。
我还是没明白这是如何让日本成为世界制造业的领导者的（想想丰田）。我想知道，仅仅靠通才是如何达到这么高制造业水平的。
Same thing happened in Sweden when they started to heavly push for equality of opportunity. Its like, women just dont wanna work there. Sadly some want to make you believe that we need 50/50 men women in every job and start to force this with rules...
同样的事情也发生在瑞典，后来他们开始大力推动机会平等。然而女性就是不想在那些领域里工作。可悲的是，有些人想让你相信，我们在所有领域的工作都需要男女各半，并开始用规则来强制实施。
just imagine if obokota was successful years ago. it could have spawned a generation of young girls wanting to enter STEM field. that is probably what is lacking right now. a figure head to look up to that can inspire young girls.
想象一下，如果小保方晴子在几年前的造假成功了会怎么样。这可能会催生出一代想要进入理工领域的年轻女孩。这可能是目前所缺乏的。一个能激励年轻女孩的领军人物。
I hate how people have arbitrarily decided that somehow STEM is more important then other fields. Women out number men in universities you know.
我讨厌人们武断地认为理工领域比其他领域更重要。你知道的，大学里女生比男生多。
STEM is more important than other fields. Science and engineering is what brought about biggest change and improvement in everyone's standard of living past 200 years or so.
p.s) lol @ downvotes from all the liberal arts major. sorry you aren't contributing as much to scientific progress of mankind
理工领域就是比其他领域重要。在过去200年的时间里，给所有人生活水平带来了最大变化和提高的是科学和工程。
注:哈哈，踩我的都是文科生。很遗憾，你们对人类的科学进步贡献不大。
That assumes that material standard of living increasing is more important than other goals.
你这是假设物质生活水平提高比其他目标更重要。
spoken like someone that has no idea how average peasant lived constantly fearing hunger prior to industrial revolution
你这话说得像个不知道普通农民在工业革命前是如何忍受饥饿的人
I never said it wasn’t important. I just said that you made an assumption that’s not always necessarily true
我没说这不重要。我只是说你的假设并不总是正确的
Yeah, that's bullshit. The biggest changes were brought in from changes in the political system and policy. Without politics prioritizing human capital, there wouldn't even be any significant technological advances because only a handful of people would be able to go to university.
是的，那是胡说八道。最大的变化来自政治制度和政策的改变。如果没有优先考虑人力资本的政治，就不会有重大的技术进步，因为只有少数人能够上大学。
There's some subtlety in that headline. For example, if I look at the OECD source, in the case of my country, the proportion of all students studying Engineering is half that of Japan. But the proportion of women in the engineering degrees is double. And the proportion of people going to university is about the same. So, overall the fraction of women studying engineering is about the same in the two countries. Of course this still means that men dominate the engineering profession in Japan, but it's not like women are not going into Engineering in Japan.
这个标题有点微妙。比如，如果我们看一下经合组织的资料来源，以我们国家的情况来说，所有学习工程学的学生比例是日本的一半，而女性在工程学中的比例是日本的两倍。上大学的人数比例大致相同。所以在总体上，两国学习工程学的女性比例大致相同。当然，这仍然意味着男性主导着日本的工程行业，但这并不表明日本女性不会进入工程行业。
I don't know why, but at least in Japan, most of men who choose to go into STEM fields(理系) are オタク(nerd), that tend to be relatively unattractive... or, I mean, have ugly face somehow. It's never talked about publicly, but there is a certain tendency on Japanese social media, to openly mock (or self-deprecate) the appearance of men in STEM fields (of high school/university). The real reason why this many women won't go into there in Japan is... well, it's probably largely because of this for now.
Please don't easily compare this to the situation in the West. I know it's cruel to be this frank, but the appearance of Japanese male nerd is THAT terrible. Once you let go of the idea of racism and realistically imagine a group of Japanese men with ugly faces and body odor, you will understand how Japanese women feel. The reality that you will probably spend four years of your supposedly glamorous college life in a group of sweaty nerds, lonely and immersed in research, is very hard for a woman.
Of course, such nonsense is irrelevant to women who have aspirations and decide to major in their field. But remember, most people, including men, enter college just to have more fun in life, and choose their major without big reason. Most of them just want to live in the city or spend their college life surrounded by attractive people.
我不知道原因，但至少在日本，大多数选择理工领域的男性都是宅男，那往往不吸引人……或者，我是说，不知怎么的有一张难看的脸。这从未被公开谈论过，但在日本社交媒体上有某种倾向，公开嘲笑（或自嘲）理工男的外表。在日本，这么多女性不会选择这个领域的原因是……呃，现在可能主要就是因为这个。
请不要轻易将这与西方的情况进行比较。我知道这么直白很残忍，但日本宅男的外表就是这么可怕。一旦你放下种族主义的观念，想象一下一群长相难看、满身臭味的日本男人，你就会明白日本女人的感受。对于一个女人来说，要在一群满身大汗的宅男身边度过你本该光鲜亮丽的大学生活的四年，孤独的专注于研究，这种现实是非常困难的。
当然，这些胡说八道对那些有抱负并决定选择该领域的女性来说是无足轻重的。但是要记住，大多数人，包括男性，进入大学只是为了在生活中获得更多的乐趣，他们选择专业并没有什么太大的理由。他们中的大多数人只是想住在城市里，或者在有魅力的人周围度过大学生活。
So they decided to do something else. Good for them.
所以她们决定做点别的。对她们有好处。
People are talking about medicine which really is a separate thing to STEM.
Medicine had always been a popular and elite subject for East Asians, so there's a limited number of places which leads to that dreadful score adjustment scandal, but that's a different story altogether.
The issue people are concerned of is engineering and computer science - those positions where talent has to be constantly imported yet there's no local desire to get into. This swings back to how these jobs are constantly being frxd as "jobs for those dirty loser incels" which turns it into a self-fulfilling prophecy and make girls stay away from those fields even more.
有人在谈论医学，医学和理工科是不同的。
对于东亚人来说，医学一直是热门的精英学科，所以只有有限的几个地方有分数调整丑闻，但那是完全不同的故事。
人们关心的问题是工程和计算机科学——这些职位需要不断引进人才，但当地人却不想进入。这又回到了这些工作被认为是“为那些肮脏的失败者提供的工作”的问题上，这让它变成了一个自我实现的预言，让女孩们更加远离这些领域。
well maybe they don't want to
呃，可能是她们不想去
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Hi. I’m a female electrical engineering student, who meets a lot of HS and university students through EE events and TA work.
You are right! Women don’t want to go into STEM because... we see a future of being the only woman at our workplace, like I am now in my internship. Or the only women in all their college classes, I’m that too. We fear not being able to find peers within our field, something I’ve only been able to do by participating in women-oriented STEM events. We fear discrimination in college or our workplace, luckily my country does alright on this front but it’s a huge issue in Japan.
The problem is not that women don’t want to go into STEM, it’s that even for a smart and technically minded woman there’s little incentive to choose this career.
我是一名电气工程专业的女学生，通过电子工程活动和助教工作认识了很多HS和大学生。
你说得对，女性不想进入理工科，因为……我们看到的未来是我们会成为职场里唯一的女性，就像我现在在实习的情况一样。或者是大学班级里唯一的女性，比如我就是。我们担心在我们的领域找不到同行，只有通过参加面向女性的理工活动才能找到。我们害怕在大学或职场里受到歧视，幸运的是，我们国家在这方面做得很好，但日本在这方面是个大问题。
问题不在于女性不想进入理工领域，而在于即使是聪明且有技术头脑的女性，也没有动力选择这一领域。
Not to mention, in my country as least, how you are constantly discouraged to peruse a major/career in such field because “it’s not suitable for women.” And constantly get surprise looks “wow you study STEM as a women?”(read: you are such an outsider.)
更不用说，你被不断劝阻去研究这一领域，因为“这不适合女性”，至少在我的国家是这样的。并且总是有人惊讶地看着你说“哇，你是学理工的女性？” （解读：你就是个局外人。）
Yup, and I imagine that’s really bad in Japan. I’d say in Denmark, no one ever told me it was wrong for me to choose electrical engineering, although it’s still hard to get into and stay in. But i do get a shocked look every time I mention my major.
是的，我觉得这在日本真的很糟糕。我想说，在丹麦，没有人对我说选择电气工程专业是错误的，尽管进入和留在这个领域仍然很难。但每次我提到我的专业时，别人都会露出震惊的表情。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Hi! I'm a female automation engineer and design robot system and program.
Being only women at workplace won't be much problem. People are just curious about you and ask bunch of questions because female engineer is rare. You will get used to it soon. Problem is you get used to working in only men environment and become menly...start to think like men.
There's lots of good part of being engineer though. Usually engineers are much logical people so it's easy to work with. Usually you are uated only by how much you can do. So there's no female discrimination or I never felt. Female discrimination is happening more in departments which doesn't bring profit directly to company like in my opinion. If you are money making engineer no one cares about your sex.
Especially when you are the only female everyone will try to teach you how to do job while men colleagues are suffering they don't get enough job training. Engineer job is high salary job and you don't have to worry about looking for job. I wonder why more female won't chose this job. Technology is fun.
我是一名女性自动化工程师，设计机器人系统和程序。
成为职场里唯一的女性不算什么问题。人们只是对你好奇，然后问很多问题，因为女性工程师很少。很快你就会习惯的。问题在于你会习惯在只有男性的环境中工作，然后变得男人婆……开始像男性一样思考。
不过，做工程师有很多好处。通常，工程师都是很有逻辑的人，所以很容易和他们合作。通常，人们只会根据你的能力来评价你。所以里面没有女性歧视，或者我从来没有感觉到。在我看来，女性歧视更多地发生在不直接为公司带来利润的部门。如果你是一个能赚钱的工程师，没人会关心你的性别。
尤其是当你是唯一的女性时，所有人都愿意教你，而男同事则会因为没有得到足够的工作培训而受苦。工程师的薪水很高，而且你不必担心找工作的问题。我想知道为什么没有更多的女性选择这种工作。技术是很有趣的。
Hey that’s what I’m trying to do! My internship is in a robotics company, i write firmware and do tests for them :D I have the same experience at work too. I haven’t experienced discrimination so far and in fact people are friendly and curious because I’m a woman who chose EE. I don’t need women colleagues to talk to either, but i do feel a bit awkward being in a room with 30 men. Mostly what bothers me is that it’s like a monoculture of people, they’re all very similar and it gets boring when everyone has the same ideas and opinions. When they do disagree they get angry at each other very quickly and try to prove themselves right rather than listening, which i think is a male thing. I do my best to not be like that.
But all in all i think i only have benefits to being a female electrical engineer and i tell that to everyone who’s interested in doing the same major as me. I get attention both for my gender and the abilities i have that men are not as good at on average. The salary is high and there isn’t a wage gap between genders in this field. I think it’s harder for women in less gender equal countries though... and i would still like to have at least a couple of female colleagues lol.
这就是我想做的！我在一家机器人公司实习，我为他们编写固件并做测试，在工作中我也有同样的经历。到目前为止，我还没有经历过歧视，事实上，人们都很友好和好奇，因为我是一个选择了电子工程的女性。我也不需要和女同事聊天，但和30个男人在一个房间里，我确实感到有点尴尬。最让我困扰的是人们的一元化，他们都非常相似，当每个人都有相同的想法和观点时，就会变得很无聊。当他们不同意对方的意见时，他们会很快生气，并试图证明自己是正确的，而不是倾听，而我认为这是男性的事情。我尽力不让自己变成那样。
但总而言之，我认为作为一名女性电气工程师只对我有好处，我会告诉所有有兴趣和我一样专业的人。我的性别和我的能力都获得了关注。这个行业的薪水很高，而且性别之间没有工资差距。不过我认为在性别不太平等的国家，对女性来说是很难的。我还是希望至少有几个女同事，哈哈。
Good choice! This job is fun. One day you will have prototype design task and make functions which still doesn't exists.
I agree. We are bit like monocultured people. Because when you try to find solution to a problem we have to consider project cost and time and what technology we can apply. Then we can only choose monoculture idea sometimes especially when delivery date is close. But basic design phase is fun and you have more freedom. It's good idea not to be like your fighting colleagues.
Engineer level is very easy to uate. We usually work project base. When company want to sell robot plant to customer your first task is helping sales team. You travel to all over the world and listen to customer about what they want discuss specification with customer. Once specification is decided we start basic design in corporation with mechanical and hardware team. After basic design is decided we start programming and testing. Then customer will come visit plant for acceptance test. Then machines and robots are disassembled for shipping. After shipping, assembly team will assemble robots back and check movement. There customer and project manager will do final acceptance test. Then customer starts 'I know it's not in specification but can we have extra functions?' Then you design program and fly for testing. Then finally finish project. This total project time and cost are decided when project starts. When you can deliver software without visible bug within end of project you are good engineer. When you finish project much earlier and save company's cost you are very good engineer. When you can earn customer's trust and had nomination again means create new sales, you are money maker. When your schedule don't have window for next few years with nomination by customer, company will treat you like rockstar. It's really about how much money you can bring to company. And how much useful functions you develop and sell.
Female engineer is really rare. I only met 2 in Germany and one in UK... But when you go to sales department or travel department you will find someone. I drink out with sales girls often.
选得好！这份工作很有趣。总有一天你会有原型设计任务，并创造出还不存在的功能。
我同意。人们有点一元化，因为当你试图找出一个问题的解决方案时，我们必须考虑项目成本和时间，以及我们可以应用的技术。因此，我们有时只能选择一元化的想法，尤其是在交付日期临近的时候。但基本设计阶段很有趣，而且你能永有更多的自由。不要像你那些好斗的同事一样，这是个好主意。
工程师的级别很容易评估。我们通常以项目为基础。当公司想向客户销售机器人设备时，你的首要任务是帮助销售团队。你到世界各地出差，倾听客户的需求，并与客户讨论规格。一旦规格确定，我们就与机械团队和硬件团队合作开始基本设计。在基本设计确定之后，我们开始编程和测试。然后客户来访进行验收测试。然后机器和机器人被拆开装运。装运后，装配团队会将机器人组装回去，并检查移动情况。在那里，客户和项目经理会进行最终验收测试。然后客户开始“我知道之前的规格里没有提，但我们能增加额外的功能吗？”环节，然后你又要设计程序和测试。然后最终完成项目。项目总时间和成本在项目开始时就决定了。当你能够在项目结束时交付，没有明显的软件缺陷时，你就是一名优秀的工程师。当你能提前完成项目，还能为公司节省成本时，你就是一名非常优秀的工程师。当你能赢得客户的信任，再次获得客户的推荐时，这意味着创造了新的销售，你就是赚钱好手。当你的工作日程因为客户的推荐而在接下来的几年里没有空余时，公司会像对待摇滚明星一样对待你。真正的问题是你能给公司带来多少钱。以及你开发和销售了多少有用的功能。
女工程师真的很少见。我只在德国见过两个，在英国见过一个……但当你去销售部或旅游部时，你会发现很多。我经常和销售妹子出去喝酒。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Thank you so much for writing all this! It’s always so interesting and comforting to hear from someone who has experience working as an engineering, especially when they’re also a woman and even within my field (i only know one other person like you?) It makes me feel more confident about pursuing this career!
Maybe I will go make friends with the girls in finance now!
非常感谢你写的一切！听到有工程经验的人说的东西总是非常有趣和令人安慰，尤其当他们也是女性，甚至是在我的领域时。这让我对选择这个职业更有信心！
也许我会去和金融业的女孩交朋友！