德国人对二战后失去普鲁士的情况有何看法？
How did the Germans feel about the loss of Prussia after World War II?
译文简介
我的祖父母当时是青少年，1944年冬天红军逼近时，他们从东普鲁士逃到了柏林。
正文翻译
How did the Germans feel about the loss of Prussia after World War II?
德国人对二战后失去普鲁士的情况有何看法？
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, History geek before the word 'geek' was even invented
My grandparents, teenagers at that time, fled from Eastern Prussia to Berlin when the Red Army approached in the winter of 1944.
My grandparents were from a bitterly poor rural family, simple farm hands. They made the trip on foot - their only horse died after two days. They ate it.
Three small children died in these weeks - from the icy cold, hunger, exhaustion.
Trust me when I say my grandparents didn’t give a fuck about who owns Prussia. They were too busy being happy to still be alive.
我的祖父母当时是青少年，1944年冬天红军逼近时，他们从东普鲁士逃到了柏林。
我的祖父母来自一个极度贫困的农村家庭，是一个普普通通的农场工人。他们徒步跋涉转移--他们唯一的马两天后就死了。他们吃了它。
他们的三个小孩在这几个星期里相继离世--死于冰冷、饥饿和疲惫。
相信我，当我说我的祖父母并不鸟谁拥有普鲁士的时候。他们忙着为自己还活着而高兴。
I have read of German “revanchists" who have made all kinds of historic claims on family property in East Prussia, that is now in Poland. They wanted Prussia to be part of Germany again. An unrealistic expectation that could embroil the German state in extremely expensive reparations or, alternatively, armed conflict with a European neighbor.
The government of the Federal Republic of Germany refuses to recognize such claims, as it has tacitly accepted the permanent loss of these former German territories. Even after reunification, there was no attempt by Germany to recover Prussia from Poland.
Ironic, as historically Prussia under Bismarck was the main driver of the unification of the many small principalities and duchies into Germany. Now, part of Prussia is sundered from the Germany it once helped put together.
我读到过德国的"复兴主义者"，他们对东普鲁士的家庭财产提出了各种历史性的要求，而这些财产现在在波兰。他们希望普鲁士能够再次成为德国的一部分。这种不切实际的期望可能使德国陷入极其昂贵的赔款中，或者与欧洲邻国发生武装冲突。
德意志联邦共和国政府拒绝承认这种要求，因为它已经默许了这些前德国领土的永久丧失。即使在统一后，德国也没有试图从波兰手中收回普鲁士。
具有讽刺意味的是，在历史上，俾斯麦领导下的普鲁士是将许多小公国和公国统一到德国的主要推动力。现在，普鲁士的一部分却被从它曾经帮助组建的德国中分割出来。
One thing is not attempting to recover sovereignty over the territory, other thing is private properly. Territory changing governments doesn’t normally imply people being thrown off their property - even Ukrainians who owned real estate in Crimea, retained it after occupation. I am not sure there’s no way to get hands on private property lost - for example, restitution was a thing in many countries after fall of Communism, in many cases with property being received by heirs of original owners who were born abroad and did not hold citizenships or knew the language.
一码归一码，这不是试图恢复对领土的主权，这是一件私人适当的请求。领土更换了政府一般来说并不意味着人们被没收了他们的财产--即使是在克里米亚拥有房地产的乌克兰人，在被占领后也保留了它。我不确定是否没有办法得到失去的私有财产--例如，在许多国家，共产主义垮台后，归还财产是一件很正常的事，在许多情况下，财产被出生在国外、不拥有公民身份或不懂语言的原主人的继承人收到。
I have not read any detailed information about the subject, but I think the millions of Germans who were expelled after WWII were not compensated for any property lost. My guess is that it is normal for people forced from their homes not to recover anything. After all, most countries involved in WWI and II suffered greatly economically and were not in a mood to compensate those expelled.
我还没有读到任何关于这个问题的详细信息，但我认为二战后被驱逐的数百万德国人没有得到任何财产损失的补偿。我的猜测是，那些被迫离开家园的人没有恢复任何东西都是正常的。毕竟，大多数参与一战和二战的国家在经济上遭受了巨大的损失，而且没有心情补偿那些被驱逐的人。
Those who returned to their ancestral homes in Prussia had to buy the houses and the land from the Polish government.
那些回到普鲁士祖传家园的人不得不从波兰政府手中购买房屋和土地。
So you say Ukraine or now Russia will return the land to the real owners = Crimean Tatars? Hard to believe…
所以你说乌克兰还是现在俄罗斯会把土地归还给真正的所有者=克里米亚鞑靼人？很难相信......
No one took the land, maybe apart from the very small number of plots with dubious ownership papers (that happens with valuable plots in Russia owned by ethnic Russians every day and has nothing to do with annexation or national question, just because Russia is corrupt). Even today, Ukrainians or Tatars who owned the land before 2014 in Crimea, still do (while people not holding Russian passports are not allowed to buy more land there, since recently, but those who already owned, still do).
没有人拿走他们的土地，也许除了极少数拥有可疑所有权文件的地块（俄罗斯境内俄罗斯族人拥有的有价值的地块的所有权每天都在改变，这与吞并或国家问题无关，只是因为俄罗斯很腐败）。即使在今天，2014年之前在克里米亚拥有土地的乌克兰人或鞑靼人仍然拥有他们的土地（而从最近开始，没有俄罗斯护照的人不允许在那里购买更多的土地，但那些已经拥有的人仍然可以拥有）。
My grandparents had a farm in Ostpreussen which is now Poland. There was no attempt to recover land but the German government paid them restitution for the land they lost. This happened as late as the 1960s. The estimated value of the land was divided among the surviving family members which included my grandmother and all her children.
我的祖父母在东普鲁士有一个农场，现在是波兰领土。没有人试图去收回土地，但德国政府为他们失去的土地支付了赔偿金。这种情况一直持续到20世纪60年代。土地的估计价值被分给幸存的家庭成员，其中包括我的祖母和她所有的孩子。
One would think Poland should pay the restitution, as they own these German lands now .
人们可能会认为波兰应该支付赔偿金，因为他们现在拥有这些之前德国的土地。
Why Should they. Germany started the war with Russia against the Polish. So Germany and Russia should pay. The UK didn't recieve a penny from any country after the war. The USA became a world power after the war and the two countries who started it never had to pay a penny to the countries who defended against them. The 2 countries became 2 of the world leaders by the 70s only 30 years after. Yet countries like the UK were still paying for the war long after 2000.
凭什么，德国与俄国一起发动了针对波兰人的战争。所以德国和俄国应该支付。英国在战后没有从任何国家获得一分钱。美国在战后成为世界强国，而发动战争的两个国家从来没有向抵御他们的国家支付过一分钱。到了70年代，这两个国家在30年后又成为世界上的两个领导者。然而，像英国这样的国家在2000年后的很长时间里仍在为战争付出代价。
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Umm…the UK was still paying because they declared war on Germany .
Not sure what the mystery is about that .
Talk to Churchill , and why the war wasn’t over with a armistice in 1940 ( like France)
And you talk like the Germans just flipped a coin and attacked Poland.
We need to go back to the Versailles treaty for these answers.
Poland refused to return Germanys ancestral lands , stolen at Versailles . And this was also Britain’s fault , Polish leaders were indeed inept , but even they could see the Germany from the 30s was not to be screwed with , but Britain’s LATE guaranteed ensured Germany was forced to take what was rightfully there’s by force . This emboldened the Pols .
Throw away your british history book, it’s no longer relevant .
嗯......英国仍然在支付代价，是因为他们对德国宣战了。
不知道这有什么奇怪的。
跟丘吉尔说去吧，为什么战争没有在1940年以停战的方式结束（像法国那样）。
而你却说得好像德国人只是扔了一枚硬币就决定进攻波兰。
我们需要回到凡尔赛条约中去寻找这些答案。
波兰拒绝归还德国人的祖传土地，这些土地是在凡尔赛条约中被偷走的。这也是英国的错，波兰领导人确实无能，但即使是他们也能看出30年代的德国是不能被乱耍的，但英国随后的动作确保了德国被迫用武力夺取本应属于他们的东西。这让波兰人壮起了胆。
扔掉你的英国历史书吧，它毫无意义。
（神奇的是，这个评论有10个赞，比下面几条反驳它的都多）
Dude, Poland wasn't even a country from the mid-18th century till the Treaty of Versailles--except for a brief exercise in nationhood under Napoleon. These “German ancestral lands" were as stolen as stolen gets. Even the Prussian lands were stolen from…guess who? THE PRUSSIANS!! Precluding the Lithuanian Crusade the Teutonic Order conquered Prussia in another crusade and used it as a base, which eventually grew into the Prussian kingdom. These were Germans living on stolen lands. There is no territory in Poland or the Baltic today to which Germans RIGHTFULLY have claim.
老兄，从18世纪中叶到《凡尔赛条约》，波兰甚至不是一个国家--除了拿破仑时期短暂的建国活动。这些所谓被偷走的"德国祖先的土地"是偷来的。甚至普鲁士的土地也是从......你猜是谁那里偷来的？普鲁士人！! 在立陶宛十字军东征之前，条顿骑士团在另一次十字军东征中征服了普鲁士，并将其作为一个基地，最终发展成为普鲁士王国。这些德国人生活在偷来的土地上。今天，在波兰或波罗的海，根本没有德国人所谓的“本应属于他们”的领土。
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Are you serious!! Nazi apologism doesn’t get much more blatant than that.
Perhaps the UK should have handed them their entire Jewish population into the bargain. Never in the history of warfare or human conflict has a war been so utterly good against bad as WW2.
Yet your only response is “The UK declared war on Germany”! Wow!
你是认真的吗！？没有比这更明目张胆的为纳粹的辩解了。
也许英国应该把他们所有的犹太人都交给他们，作为停战条件？在战争或人类冲突的历史上，从来没有一场战争像二战那样彻底地是好VS坏过。
然而，你唯一的回应是"英国向德国宣战了"! 哇塞！
Regardless of reparation related arguments. Are we sincerely claiming that the world would be a better place if the UK and commonwealth had signed an armistice with NAZI Germany? I think a few Jews may argue that point…
不管与赔偿有关的争论如何。我们是否真诚地声称，如果英国和英联邦与纳粹德国签署停战协议，世界将变得更美好？我想有几个犹太人可能对此会有争论......
This was done under the provisions of a special law titled “Lastenausgleichsgesetz” which was passed by the German Bundestag in 1953. The moneys necessary to cover this huge extra budget item were to come from the native West German taxpayers who, in relative terms, had suffered a lot less from the consequences of the war than their dispossessed compatriots from the East. Sadly, once finally established in some new but unfamiliar surroundings, these people were too often regarded without sympathy as unwelcome foreign intruders by the local populace who, when among themselves, spoke of them in a cold-humored way as “die aus der kalten Heimat” (“those from the cold homeland”, i.e. the German eastern provinces).
Due to the very large numbers involved, it provided compensation for only a portion of the actual appraised value of these properties (industrial works and factories, artisan shops and dealerships, farms and estates, etc.), but it was better than receiving nothing at all for the total loss of their valued assets and thus was much appreciated by the expellees and their families striving hard to build a new life for themselves under the most challenging conditions.
这是根据1953年德国联邦议院通过的一项名为"Lastenausgleichsgesetz "的特别法律规定进行的。支付这个巨大的额外预算项目所需的资金来自西德本地的纳税人，相对而言，西德遭受的战争后果比他们被剥夺土地的东方同胞要少得多。可悲的是，随着这些人终于在一些新的但不熟悉的环境中站稳脚跟，他们往往会被当地居民视为不受欢迎的外来入侵者，而在他们之间，他们会以一种冷幽默的方式将他们称为"Die aus der kalten Heimat"（"那些来自寒冷家乡的人"，即德国东部省份）。
由于涉及的人数非常多，政府只提供了这些财产（工业厂房和工厂、工匠商店和经销商、农场和庄园等）实际评估价值的一部分赔偿，但这总比完全没有得到他们有价值的资产要好，因此，被驱逐者和他们的家人在最艰难的条件下努力为自己建立新的生活，对此非常感激。
Yet.
还没完。
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It will never happen. Germans consider WWII reparations to be closed chapter, mainly because they repayed maybe single percents of the damage. If Germany got Prussia back and had to repay the damage just in Poland, the country would be bankrupt in such a manner that Greece would look like a gold mine.
这永远不会发生。德国人认为二战赔款已经结束，主要是因为他们偿还的可能只有实际损失的百分之几。如果德国拿回了普鲁士，并且不得不偿还在波兰的损失，那么这个国家就会破产，这会使希腊看起来就像一个金矿。
UK consent to reunification was delayed while Herr Kohl considered recognition of the Eastern Border as the final accepted border. It was not immediate. I have no doubt that there will be strands of opinion in German that have nostalgia for a larger Germany.
It does not take too much imagination to see that a different future German leader could reopen the topic.
在科尔先生还在考虑是不是要承认东徳东部边界为最终接受的边界时，英国对德国统一的同意推迟了。这并不是立即做出的决定。我毫不怀疑，德国人中会有一些人对一个更大的德国怀念不已。
不需要太多想象力就可以看出，未来的德国领导人会重新开启这个话题。
Zero chance. The only Germans interested are those personally expelled, so people in their 80s or older. For the future generations of Germans, the old border will be just a part of history books.
The only “revisionist” thing that might happen in Germany is classificatoin of the Western strategic bombing and Soviet mass rapes as war crimes, but I won’t hold breath.
这个机会是零。对此唯一感兴趣的德国人是那些当初被驱逐的人，所以都已经是80多岁或更老的人了。对德国人的后代来说，旧边界将只会是历史书的一部分。
唯一可能在德国发生的"修正主义"事情是将西方的战略轰炸和苏联的大规模强奸归为战争罪，对此我不会意外。
Obviously I hope you are correct. I am sure if you asked a “typical” German in 1929 if s/he would follow a madman into hell they could not imagine it … and yet they did.
Churchill said that those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Refusing the possibility because you do not want to contemplate horror does not remove horror from existence. Your certainty scares me.
The role call of aggression and crimes is, indeed long and I am sure we can all add our own particular “favourites”. Hitler and Stalin both did terrible things but their motives were entirely different. Hitler wanted world domination. Stalin wanted communism to survive in the USSR. He had survived the long civil war and the loss of Finland, the Baltic States, Eastern Poland and Bessarabia at Brest-Litovsk. Regaining territory in the face of a greater threat? Foreign policy choices remarkably similar to both Britain and France in the 1930s?
Pretty much all that Stalin did would have accorded with other European powers in the late 1930s - unless you think Britain and France appeasing Hitler at Munich did not include guilt for the murder of Czech and Slovak resistors, even Katy can be put in that box. All hand their hands dipped in blood.
The collapse of Yugoslavia showed us that friends and neighbours can still go to war over ethnic labels. And only last week, Brexit Britain sent a warship to “defend" the Channel Islands from France! How deep are the roots of peace in Europe?
我当然希望你是对的。但是我也确信，如果你在1929年问一个"典型的"德国人，他/她是否会跟随一个疯子进地狱，他们肯定无法想象......但他们确实这样做了。
丘吉尔说过，那些不从历史中学习的人注定要重复历史。因为你不想考虑这件事的可能性有多恐怖，并不能从存在中消除恐怖。你的肯定反而让我感到害怕。
侵略和犯罪的角色名单确实很长，我相信我们都可以添加我们自己特定的"最爱"。希特勒和斯大林都做了可怕的事情，但他们的动机完全不同。
希特勒想要统治世界。斯大林希望共产主义能在苏联生存下去。他在漫长的内战中幸存下来，并在布列斯特-利托夫斯克条约中失去了芬兰、波罗的海国家、波兰东部和贝萨拉比亚。在更大的威胁面前夺回领土？外交政策的选择与1930年代的英国和法国都非常相似？
斯大林所做的一切几乎都符合其他欧洲大国在20世纪30年代末的做法--除非你认为英国和法国在慕尼黑安抚希特勒的行为不属于谋杀捷克和斯洛伐克抵抗者的罪行，甚至凯蒂也可以被放进这个名单。他们的手都沾满了血。
南斯拉夫的解体向我们表明，朋友和邻居仍然可以因为种族标签而开战。而就在上周，英国脱欧派了一艘军舰去"保卫"海峡群岛不受法国的侵犯！这让我们看到，和平的根基有多深？欧洲的和平根基有多深？
Strategic bombing is not and will never be a war crime. Germany was the aggressor and the strategic bombing was essential in diverting German resources away from the Eastern front as well as destroying German industry and infrastructure. The Germans caused the deaths of 27 million people in the East and hundreds of times more innocent civilians than Germany lost. This number would have been even greater without the allied bombing.
In addition, British bombers were forbidden by their high command from even flying over populated German areas to reduce the risk of civilian casualties. This all changed when the Germans started indiscrimnately bombing British cities.
You reap what you sow!
战略轰炸不是也永远不会是战争罪。德国是侵略者，战略轰炸对转移德国在东线的资源以及摧毁德国的工业和基础设施至关重要。德国人在东方造成了2700万人的死亡，无辜平民的死亡人数是德国损失的数百倍。如果没有盟军的轰炸，这个数字甚至会更大。
此外，英国轰炸机甚至被其最高指挥部禁止飞越德国人口密集区，以减少平民伤亡的风险。当德国人开始不分青红皂白地轰炸英国城市时，这一切都改变了。
种瓜得瓜，种豆得豆!
Note that Germany lost a LOT of territory to Poland/USSR; and that’s not counting the suffering that the German people at the hands of the Nazis, the Red Army, etc. In other words; the German people paid the price of Hitler’s crimes, in full.
It’s NOT Germany’s fault that its citizens quickly rebuilt their cities, industry, railroads, etc. If torn to hell Germany was able to do so after WW II; why can’t some other nations in Europe do the same things?
请注意，德国失去了很多领土给波兰/苏联；这还不算德国人民在纳粹、红军等手中遭受的痛苦。换句话说，德国人民为希特勒的罪行付出了全部代价。
德国公民迅速重建了城市、工业、铁路等，这不是德国的错。如果被撕裂成地狱的德国在二战后能够这样做；为什么欧洲其他一些国家不能做同样的事情？
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Germany rebuilt partly because of their work ethic. However, don't undervalue the Marshall Plan. American generosity in the postwar period was immense and really laid the foundation of the peace and prosperity of Western Europe.
Countries not supported by the Plan (Warsaw Pact) were much slower to recover.
德国重建的部分原因是他们的职业道德。然而，不要低估了马歇尔计划的价值。美国在战后的慷慨解囊是巨大的，确实为西欧的和平和繁荣奠定了基础。
没有得到该计划支持的国家（华沙条约组织）的恢复要慢得多。
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It was a LOAN . and Germany was one of the lesser recipients.
这是一笔“贷款”。而且德国是接收较少的国家之一。
Poland did not start World War II, but still lost much more land and was the main field for many clashes (damage to real estate and civilians was much greater than in Germany). The Marshall Plan helped a lot in rebuilding Germany, but I think the Americans did it to have a strong counterbalance to the USSR because they saw that it would be their main opponent. Btw, NRD did not receive the Marshal, do you remember what a difference was between NRD and RFN?
NRD still had some privileges in compare to other occupied countries but was so far after RFN.
Germans people voted for Hitler
波兰没有发动二战，但仍然失去了更多的土地，并且是许多冲突的主要战场（对房地产和平民的损害比德国大得多）。马歇尔计划对德国的重建帮助很大，但我认为美国人这样做是为了对苏联形成强有力的制衡，因为他们看到苏联将是他们的主要对手。顺便说一下，新民主主义共和国没有得到马歇尔计划的援助，你还记得新民主主义共和国和俄罗斯联邦的区别是什么吗？
与其他被占领的国家相比，新民主主义共和国仍有一些特权，但比北约要晚很多。
还有，德国人投票给希特勒
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My grandmother (born ‘23) came from close to Marienburg in Eastern Prussia. They had to flee when the Russians came and on the way, her younger brother got shot by drunk Russian soldiers. Her older brothers had all died in the war before.
Despite that, she never blamed the Russians or anything. She hated the Nazis and accepted that Eastern Prussia was lost. She said that we started the war and lost, so we have no reason to complain. Also, she never wanted to go back there, not even to visit after the Wall came down…
我的祖母（23年出生）来自东普鲁士的马里恩堡附近。俄国人来的时候，他们不得不逃亡，在路上，她的弟弟被喝醉的俄国士兵射杀了。她的哥哥们之前都死在了战争中。
尽管如此，她从未责怪过俄国人或任何东西。她憎恨纳粹，并接受东普鲁士已经失落的事实。她说，我们发动了战争并输了，所以我们没有理由抱怨。另外，她从来没有想过要回到那里，甚至在墙倒塌后也没有去过......
Unfortunately (not the point of the question but relevant to it) Hitler cared too much. He delayed the extensively planned evacuation of East Prussia and other areas until the last moment, leading to desperate situations like this where civilians left of their own accord and fended for themselves on the road. The Nazis even mixed in fake accounts of Soviet atrocities with the real ones and disseminated them among the population, also causing panicked flight.
不幸的是（不是问题的重点，但与问题有关），希特勒太在乎了。他把对东普鲁士和其他地区的广泛的疏散计划推迟到最后一刻，导致了像这样的绝望情况：平民主动离开，在路上自生自灭。纳粹甚至将苏联暴行的假账与真账混在一起，在民众中传播，也造成了恐慌性的逃离。
It should have been winter 1945, not 1944 when wehrmacht was still deep in Russia
应该是1945年冬天，而不是1944年，那时候国防军还深入在俄罗斯
I would add that most of Prussia is now Russian not Polish. Poland was given Silesia and the land around Poznan, but even then most of that land was Polish before the multiple partitions in the 1700’s. Even if Germany was concerned about Prussia, they were not about to do anything about it. Certainly individuals would have felt much like the Poles that survived the various purges who then had to leave the area around Lviv that is now part of Ukraine.
我想补充的是，普鲁士的大部分地区现在是属于俄罗斯而不是波兰。波兰得到了西里西亚和波兹南周围的土地，但即使如此，在1700年的多次分治之前，这些土地大部分都是波兰的。即使德国关注普鲁士，他们也不打算对此采取任何行动。当然，那里的人会觉得很像那些在各种清洗中幸存下来的波兰人，他们后来不得不离开现在属于乌克兰的利沃夫周围地区。
The boundaries of Eastern Europe have changed very much over the course of the last couple hundred years. Germany sometimes has acquired property; sometimes lost property. My prediction is that in the future what is now Russia will become part of the EU just as Poland is now. In this case, it won’t matter: Prussia along with other “countries” will sort of be returned to Germany or at least to the West. Time will tell.
在过去的几百年里，东欧的边界发生了很大的变化。德国有时获得了财产；有时失去了财产。我的预测是，在未来，现在的俄罗斯将成为欧盟的一部分，就像现在的波兰一样。在这种情况下，这并不重要。普鲁士和其他"国家"将在某种程度上被归还给德国，或者至少归还给西方。时间会证明一切。
It’s long past due that “Poland” return all historical Prussia to Germany and give the descendants their land/property back that was illegally & brutally stolen by the judeo–bolsheviks.
“波兰”早就该将所有历史上的普鲁士归还德国，并归还被犹太-布尔什维克非法残忍偷走的土地/财产给其后代。
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Nazi leadership was Catholic and south german. All most all Holocaust killers were Catholic and South or west German. Unfortunately Lutheran,Prussians suffered the consequences. Southern ,Catholic Germany prospered. after WW2.
纳粹领导人是天主教徒和南德人。大多数大屠杀的凶手都是天主教徒和南德或西德人。不幸的是，路德宗和普鲁士人承受了后果。南方的天主教德国反而在二战后繁荣起来了。
It is worth pointing out that just over 50% of Prussia (as it was at its maximum extent in 1867) is still part of Germany. There have been occasional suggestions of renaming the Land of Brandenburg as Brandenburg-Prussia.
值得指出的是，略超过50%的普鲁士领土（正如它在1867年的最大程度）仍然是德国的一部分。偶尔也有人建议将勃兰登堡的土地重新命名为勃兰登堡-普鲁士。