欧洲人认为德国是一个正在衰落的国家

flyingsaucerinvasion
What do Germans consider to be their golden age?

德国人认为什么时候是他们的黄金时代？

green_flash
Most Germans would say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder

大多数德国人认为是“莱茵河奇迹”时期【是指西德在二战之后的经济快速成长】

policemenconnoisseur
Merkel's biggest mistake was bringing the nuclear reactor era in Germany to an end.
Now we lack electrical energy which also lead to the automobile sector to not pursue electric vehicles when the time for it was right.
If she would have left it and moved the automobile industry to move over to electric vehicles, we could have started to replace fossil-fueled vehicles around 5-7 years ago. The benefit to the climate would have been measurable and Germany could engage in developing better nuclear reactors.
She killed it all and left us with nothing but horrendous energy prices.

默克尔最大的错误是终结了德国的核反应堆时代。
如今，我们缺乏电力，这也导致汽车行业无法及时发展电动汽车。
如果她早点离开，让汽车行业转向电动汽车，我们本可以在5-7年前就开始取代化石燃料汽车。这对气候的好处显而易见，而且德国可以参与开发更好的核反应堆。
她将之扼杀了，留给我们的只有高到可怕的能源价格。

franzastisch
You know that nuclear power was only cheap because you paid for it in taxes and the states taking over all risks, bottom line it was more expensive than any renewable energy. The biggest mistake was that she killed the fast rise of solar power by adding more taxes to it. So while nuclear energy was heavily tax funded, solar power got a tax penalty. We could have more people working in renewable energy than we ever had in coal or nuclear and we could have cheaper energy by not raising the cost on top for normal consumers while energy hungry industries got exceptions and the nuclear industry got money and got relieved of the waste.
And where do we lack electrical energy? We export more electrical energy than we import.
It wasn't the lack of electrical energy that stopped electrical cars it was the protection from the government that opposed als stricter laws on emissions. CDU, SPD and AFD always opposed all efforts to move to renewables and pushed out the coal end date.

你知道的，核能之所以便宜是因为你为它付了税，而且各州承担了所有风险，归根结底，它比所有可再生能源都贵。默克尔最大的错误是增加了太阳能税，扼杀了太阳能的快速发展。因此，核能获得巨额税收支持的同时，太阳能却受到高税收惩罚。我们本可以让从事可再生能源工作的人多于从事煤炭或核能的人，我们本可以通过不提高普通消费者的成本来获得更便宜的能源，让能源饥渴的行业不再饥渴，核工业得到资金，减少浪费。
我们哪里缺少电力了？我们出口的电力比进口多。
终止电动车的不是电力缺乏，是政府对化石燃料汽车的保护，反对更严格的排放法律。基民盟、社民党和选择党一直反对转向可再生能源的努力，推迟终结煤炭的期限。

Impossible9999
The miracle of capitalism

资本主义的奇迹

THE_CHOPPA
Capitalism is like a credit card. If you use it sparingly or for emergencies it’s very handy. But if it is your solution for anything and everything you’ll be broke and earth will be dead

资本主义就像一张信用卡。如果你少用它，或是在紧急情况下才用，那非常方便。但如果它是你解决所有事情的方案，那你会破产，地球也会完蛋

orange_drank_5
In another era, Europe was going to chart a true third path between the US and USSR. Germany and France would lead this new idea using high-speed electric trains, intermodal containers and nuclear power. Supersonic airplanes and small satellite launch systems would be European built and sold worldwide. Everyone would drive VWs, including Americans who would still be under an OPEC embargo. European business would define markets and European unxs would define the trades, even if they couldn't dominate them as the competing powers could.
This stopped being the case years ago as the EU got into it's debt crisis and refused to issue Eurobonds. The larger European project has stalled due to their bankers refusing to pay for it, which is why Europe's richest countries no longer see themselves in a golden age.

在另一个时代，欧洲将开辟一条美国道路和苏联道路之外的第三条道路。利用高速电动列车、多式联运集装箱和核能，德国和法国将引领这一新理念。超音速飞机和小型卫星发射系统将由欧洲制造，然后销往世界各地。所有人都开大众汽车，包括仍受欧佩克禁运的美国人。欧洲企业定义市场，欧盟定义贸易，哪怕无法像美国和苏联那样主导。
可惜，多年前情况就非如此了，因为欧盟陷入债务危机并拒绝发行欧洲债券。大型欧洲项目因银行家拒绝买单而中断，这也是欧洲最富裕国家不再认为自己处于黄金时代的原因。

THE_CHOPPA
Is anyone in a golden age these days? Isn’t it all perspective? No one ever think they’re living in a golden age in their time. I am sure Germans in 100 years will look back at this time as the golden age because earth will be one big environmental disaster.

如今还有哪个国家处于黄金时代吗？这都是主观看法。自己不会认为此时的自己处于黄金时代。我敢肯定，100年后的德国人会因为地球处于巨大的环境灾难而把如今当做黄金时代。

alvvayson
Exactly. obxtively, Europe is now in a golden age. We have it better than the post war years.
BioNtech is still a legit German high point.
Of course, like all ages, we have our challenges. And perhaps Europe will decline.
There is still a lot of room for economic growth in the east and Europe is second only to the US when it comes to technology.
Europe does not want to be a military superpower, but could easily be if we chose.
Europe has the most political soft power in the world.
Perhaps we are at the start of the "big decline", but it's way too early to say.

确实。客观地说，欧洲如今正处于黄金时代。我们现在的情况要比战后好。
德国的生物技术仍然处于领先地位。
当然，像所有时代一样，我们也面临自己的挑战。欧洲也许也会衰落。
东部仍有很大的经济增长空间，欧洲在技术方面仅次于美国。
欧洲不想成为军事超级大国，但如果我们想的话，很容易就可以成为。
欧洲拥有世界上最强大的政治软实力。
也许我们正处于“大衰退”的开始，但现在说衰退还太早。

TTauriStellarBody
Is anyone in a golden age these days?
China had its peak economic growth from around 2000 to about 2017. Though its demographic contraction is going to make the next 30 years "challenging". Hundreds of millions seens their incomes grow massively.
Many developing world nations are in rapid economic expansion phases of their development and having the highest standards of health and living ever.
The US is in a good place economically, though middle class white people are in a down phase so this gives the general impression of it being a low point.
Most of Eastern Europe that joined the EU has good growth and record standards of living.
Ireland has achieved some of the highest gdp per capita in Europe so by a long way its best period in history.

“如今还有哪个国家处于黄金时代吗？”
中国在2000年至2017年处于经济增长的巅峰。然而人口萎缩会让他们未来30年“充满挑战”。数亿人收入大幅增长。
许多发展中国家正处于经济快速发展阶段，拥有至今以来最高的健康和生活水平。
美国经济状况良好，尽管中产阶级白人正处于衰退阶段，因此这给人处于低谷的印象。
加入欧盟的大多数东欧国家经济增长良好，生活水平达到历史记录。
爱尔兰人均GDP是欧洲最高的地区之一，因此很长一段时间内都是历史上最好的时期。

iampatmanbeyond
So Germans believe their golden age was 2 decades only 80 years after the countries creation?

所以在德国建立80年后，德国人认为他们的黄金时代只有20年？

remmelhuts
Which is insane because the country was also split in two. It's kind of infuriating that you know there were also Germans that were repressed by a dictatorship at the very same time. But sure let's call it Golden Age and forget about 17 million Germans.
Not to mention that Germany didn't even have political autonomy before the 2+4 contract.
I'm very sorry but by all standard the wirtschaftswunder wasn't a golden age at all, it just looks amazing because of the mere absence of war.
Applying metrics like strength and influence in science, military, cultural aspects and soft power it would be reasonable to say that Germany had a golden age somewhere around the 1900.
But it was the 1900s so it wasn't a golden age in terms is societal progress (very few liberties in comparison with democratic nations like France at the time). One could also argue for now, since Germany is relatively stable, wealthy, enjoys democracy and social liberties as well es economical influence and soft power.

这太疯狂了，因为当时德国被一分为二。这有点让人生气，你知道的，当时还有德国人受到独裁政权的压迫。但当然，让我们称之为黄金时代，然后忘掉那1700万德国人。
更不用说德国在2+4协议之前根本没有政治自主权。【2+4会议，既德国统一会议，指两个德国和苏、美、英、法四国外长就德国统一的外部问题于1990年举行的四次外长会议。】
很遗憾，但从所有标准来看，“莱茵河奇迹”时期根本不是黄金时代，只不过是没有发生战争让它看起来不错。
用科学、军事、文化和软实力方面的实力和影响力来作为指标，可以说德国在1900年左右处于黄金时代是比较合理的。
但那是1900年代，所以就社会进步（与当时的民主国家法国等相比，自由是很少的）而言，那不是一个黄金时代。你也可以认为现在是，因为德国相对稳定、富裕、享有民主和社会自由、还有经济影响力和软实力。

Danne660
So two thirds of Europeans believe that Germany is not declining.
Don't see how that means that "Europeans view Germany as a declining power"

那不还有三分之二的欧洲人认为德国没有衰落吗。
不明白这怎么就表明“欧洲人认为德国是一个衰落的大国”？

indigo-alien
I don't get it either, except for the disruption from Corona and the fact that Merkel is willingly leaving office (after 16 years as Chancellor, and the first ever to do so willingly).
Pre-Corona, Germany had the highest number of people employed since WWII, the lowest number of unemployed since WWII, was host to a rather large number of refugees, while still maintaining Universal Health Care and a no tuition fee university education (with the exception of one State).
The bridges, railroads and autobahnen are constantly being rebuilt and are so good that at times there are no speed limits on the autobahnen. Cities are working full time to install fiber optic cable to our front doors, which is a bit annoying at times but we need it.
When the rest of the EU countries get into financial trouble, who do they call?

我也不明白，除了疫情的破坏和以及默克尔自愿离职的事实(在担任总理16年后，也是首位自愿离职的总理)。
在新冠疫情爆发前，德国的就业人数是二战以来最高的，失业人数是二战以来最低的，还收容了大量难民，同时仍然维持着全民医疗和免费大学教育（只一个州除外）。
桥梁、铁路和高速公路都在不断重建，有时高速公路上还没有速度限制，这很好。各个城市都在全力安装光纤电缆，这有时有点烦人，但我们需要它。
当其他欧盟国家陷入财政困境时，他们会向谁求助？

CountVonTroll
We're in decline as a power, globally as well as in Europe, relatively. It doesn't mean that things aren't going well, it just means that we're having and will have less influence.
We're a country of about 83 million. That's actually more on the larger side than on the smaller end, and combined with a highly developed economy, this used to carry some weight. And it still does. However, nowhere near as much as the US' ~330 million population, also with a highly developed economy, has. Even they are in decline, relatively. China, with its population of 1.4 billion and a by now decently developed economy that has become enormously important for the global economy over the past decades, has gained influence accordingly. India's population should actually be even larger than China's by now, and even though it doesn't come close in terms of economic influence yet, this is just a matter of time. It's not only those two, or other huge countries like Indonesia, Brazil and so on, either, but the World at large that is developing and catching up. It may be happening at different speeds, and regionally some will occasionally take a step backwards, but it's only natural and this phase during which a few societies used to be so far ahead of the majority of the global population had to be only temporary. And this will eventually make Germany just another country that, after all, has only about one percent of the global population.
Something similar is happening in Europe, and at the same time, most of us in Europe are pooling sovereignty to decide more policies together, on a more democratic basis that is spread more broadly. For Germany, this means a relative decline on influence within Europe, but it's also a countermeasure to the global development that we Europeans take in our common interest to maintain a degree of influence on the global level by banding together.
So, it's a relative decline, but an expected one, and it doesn't mean we won't be able to maintain a decent infrastructure. While those projects do indeed run into problems with influence, it's usually very, very local.

作为一个大国，我们在全球和欧洲都在相对衰落。这并不意味着事情出了什么问题，只是意味着我们现在和将来的影响力会减弱。
我们是个8300万人口的国家。这是比较大的规模，再加上高度发达的经济，让德国曾经有一定的分量。现在仍然如此。然而，这远远比不上拥有3.3亿人口、经济高度发达的美国。即使他们也在相对衰落。中国有14亿人口，经济发展良好，在过去的几十年里对全球经济变得非常重要，也获得了相应的影响力。印度目前的人口应该比中国还要多，尽管经济影响力还无法接近中国，但这只是时间问题。不仅是这两个国家，也不仅是像印度尼西亚、巴西等其他大国，而是整个世界都在发展和追赶。它们速度可能不同，一些国家偶尔会倒退，但这是正常的，少数国家曾经遥遥领先于全球大多数人口，但这只是暂时的。德国的地位终究会改变，毕竟只占全球人口的1%左右。
类似的事情正在欧洲发生，不过同时，欧洲的大多数国家正在集中主权，在更广泛的民主基础上共同决定更多的政策。对德国来说，这意味着在欧洲的影响力相对下降，但这也是我们欧洲人为了共同利益而采取的全球发展对策，即通过联合起来保持一定程度的影响力。
因此，这是相对衰落，处于预期之中，而且也不意味着我们无法维持良好的基础设施。虽然这些项目确实在影响力方面遇到了问题，但通常都是非常本地化的。

Rreknhojekul
Germany has terrible phone and internet options. Usually really expensive and poor quality.
You also can’t pay with a credit or debit card in so many places yet finding an ATM that doesn’t charge you for withdrawals isn’t always easy.
Your trains are regularly late or cancelled, they usually have no WiFi and you can have no phone coverage for hours travelling between major cities.
Really feel like Germany is kind of far behind other parts of Western Europe in some key areas that effect your day to day life.
I do love Germany though.

德国的电话和互联网很差。通常都很贵而且质量低下。
在很多地方，你也不能用信用卡或借记卡支付，要找到一台不收提款费的自动取款机也不容易。
你们的火车经常晚点或被取消，它们通常没有WiFi，在大城市之间旅行可能几个小时都没有电话信号覆盖。
在一些影响日常生活的关键领域，我真的觉得德国远远落后于西欧其他地区。
不过我确实喜欢德国。

[dexed]
What are you smoking. Compared to the US or Australia Germany is amzingly cheap and reliable.

你在说什么胡话，相比于美国或澳大利亚，德国的非常便宜且可靠。

Rreknhojekul
I am obviously not comparing Germany to a 3rd world country like the USA. I specifically said it feels like it is behind other parts of Western Europe.
You have to face facts. Germany is just Netherlands but everything is approx 10% more shit.

我显然不是在拿德国和美国这样的第三世界国家做比较。我明确说过，它落后于西欧其他地区。
你必须面对事实。德国不过是个荷兰，但一切都要差10%。

JamaicaPlainian
I lived in Germany and now live in Poland. Well you have way better internet than we have in US but compared to Poland (especially price wise) west europe is shit lol.

我以前住在德国，现在住在波兰。你们的互联网比我们美国的好得多，但和波兰相比（尤其是价格方面），西欧就是个屁。

[dexed]
Not even that in Mbit per Euro national average Germany is only behind Scotland and Portugal.

在价格方面，德国的全国平均水平也仅落后于苏格兰和葡萄牙。

Rreknhojekul
Scotland isn’t even really a country. Quite sure there is no such thing as a Scottish ISP or phone network.
Would be interested to see your source for this info.

苏格兰都不是一个真正的国家。我确定苏格兰没有ISP或电话网络这种东西。
如果你认为有的话，我很有兴趣看看你的信息来源。

[dexed]
Scotland is not even a country... Do you even read what you type? Dude lay off on whatever you are smoking.

苏格兰不是一个国家？你看了你说的话了吗？快别说胡话了。

Rreknhojekul
Yes I do read what I type. The ‘really’ is somewhat important in what I wrote and you excluded that when quoting me
The fact is, it’s not really a proper country in the usual sense. It’s part of the UK.
The UK has phone and internet providers that offer the same services, at the same prices, across all of the UK.
There is no distinct Scottish pricing so when you say behind only ‘Portugal and Scotland’ then you are just wrong.
If you want to say what you said then you must include England, Wales and Northern Ireland too.

是的，我确实看了我说的话，“真正的”这个词很重要，而你在引用时把它排除了。
事实是，通常意义上，它并不是一个真正的国家。它是英国的一部分。
英国的电话和互联网提供商在全英国以相同的价格提供相同的服务。
苏格兰定价并没有不同，所以当你说“仅落后于苏格兰和葡萄牙”时，你是错的。
要表达你的意思，你必须把英格兰、威尔士和北爱尔兰也包括进来。

drblah1
Is there any country on Earth that could be considered to be in its own "Golden Age" right now?

如今地球上哪个国家可以被认为正处于自己的“黄金时代”？

MrSprichler
China probably. Not necessary for the whole individual freedom bit, but booming economy and expanding global influence.

可能是中国吧。不是说个人自由方面，而是蓬勃发展的经济和不断扩大的全球影响力。

badluckbrians
China definitely. They've averaged 6.58% growth every year since 1960. US has only hit their average once, in 1984. And there hasn't been a single year of 5% growth here since.
Let me put this another way: China's economy doubled 10 years for the past 60 years. US's economy doubled every 35 years for the past 60 years, and almost none of it went to anyone but the top 10%, mostly to the top 1%, mostly to the top 0.1%, etc.
The only countries that come close to China are Botswana, which now has universal healthcare in Sub-Saharan Africa, and Singapore, which is basically a one-party dictatorship of the Lee family run like a hedge fund to cater to foreign millionaires.

当然是中国。自1960年以来，他们每年平均增长6.58%。美国只有一次达到他们的平均水平，那是在1984年。从那以后，就没有哪一年有5%的增长。
让我换一种说法：在过去60年里，中国经济10年就翻一番。美国经济在过去60年里每35年才翻一番，然而其他人的财富几乎不变，除了前10%的人，这里面大多数流向前1%的人，又大多数流向0.1%的人。
唯一接近中国的国家是博茨瓦纳，它在撒哈拉以南的非洲地区拥有全民医疗。而新加坡基本上是李氏家族的一党专政，它像对冲基金一样运作，以迎合外国的百万富翁。

chunek
The title is bullshit.. Germany is obviously one of the great powers of Europe, if not the greatest still, and I am not german.
My country, Slovenia, always looks up to Germany, how to handle things. Except for nuclear power.. Germany really shot themselves in the foot with nuclear power. Wind and solar energy are not even close to providing enough power, and its definitely not much cleaner, when you have to import the rest from environmentaly questionable sources.
But apart from nuclear energy, Germany is quality.
Golden age is almost always something in the past, because we tend to look at the past with rose-colored glasses, full of nostalgia and what-ifs.

标题是在胡说八道。德国如果不是欧洲最强大的，那也明显是大国之一，另外我不是德国人。
我们国家斯洛文尼亚总是仰望德国，看他们怎么处理事情。除了核能……德国在核能问题上真的是搬起石头砸自己的脚。风能和太阳能远远无法提供充足的电力，而且当你不得不从环境可疑的来源进口能源时，它显然也不太清洁。
但除了核能，德国就代表着质量。
黄金时代基本上就是代表着过去，因为我们倾向于用美化的目光看待过去，充满怀旧和假设。

Little-Range14
As a German I can tell you, that we are the most self critical people ever. So I wouldn’t put too much weight on this. If you look at data Germany probably has never been doing better.

作为一个德国人，我可以告诉你，我们是最具有自我批评精神的人。所以别太把这当回事。如果你看一下数据，德国可能从来没有做得这么好过。

BrovahkiinSeptim1
Economic power #4, de facto leader of the EU (alongside France), good recovery and handling of both major financial crises? Yeah, I think we’re doing fine.
The biggest weakness of Germany is its inherent, stubborn conservatism that makes it hard to adopt new developments and technologies. But we noticed that we missed the starting gun, and ironically, Covid actually helped companies catch up.
The new election will be an indicator of where Germany will be going. Hopefully to a more progressive and adaptable future. But I think overall, we’ll be fine.

经济实力全球第4，事实上的欧盟领导者(和法国一起)，复苏良好，两次重大金融危机的应对？是的，我认为我们做得很好。
德国最大的弱点是其固有的、顽固的保守主义，使它很难接受新的发展和技术。我们注意到我们错过了发令枪，而讽刺的是，疫情帮助各个企业赶上了。
新选举将是德国走向何方的指针。希望是走向更进步、适应性更强的未来。但在总体上，我认为我们会发展顺利。

Money_dragon
As a geography geek, it's still crazy to see how much bigger Germany was on the eve of WWI (and that's without accounting for its overseas colonies)
Would the 1914 be the peak of modern German power? Sure Germany conquered a lot of territory during WWII, but those were never sustained (too heavily outnumbered by the larger Allies)
Or recent Germany, when it was the lead nation in a confident and growing EU (pre-financial recession)?

作为一个地理爱好者，看到德国在一战前夕的庞大规模仍然觉得很震撼（而这还没有考虑到它的海外殖民地）。
1914年会是现代德国实力的巅峰吗？诚然，德国在二战期间征服了很多领土，但这些领土没有稳定维持住（被更大的同盟国压垮）。还是最近的德国（金融衰退前）？那时它是一个自信且不断发展的欧盟的领导者。

green_flash
Germans generally don't look back at the Kaiserreich with feelings of pride, with the exception of a very small group of buffoons. 1950-1965 is typically considered the greatest period in German history, at least for West Germans.
There was a lot of euphoria around reunification, but it dissipated relatively quickly. Another period that might be looked at favourably in retrospect is 2002 to 2008, from the introduction of the euro till the onset of the world financial crisis.

德国人通常不会带着骄傲的心情回顾帝国，除了极少数的小丑。1950-1965年通常被认为是德国历史上最好的时期，至少对西德人来说是这样。
对于统一，人们有很多喜悦心情，但这种喜悦很快就消散了。另一个值得回顾的时期可能是2002年到2008年，从欧元的使用到世界金融危机爆发。