除了第二次世界大战时期，为什么德国和奥地利从未形成一个国家？是因为阿尔卑斯山成为了它们之间的天然屏障吗？
Aside from the period of World War II, why did Germany and Austria never form a single country? Were the Alps a natural barrier to this?
译文简介
实际上有过许多关于建立奥-德统一国家的建议，统称为"大德意志"（更大的德国）。
正文翻译
Aside from the period of World War II, why did Germany and Austria never form a single country? Were the Alps a natural barrier to this?
除了第二次世界大战时期，为什么德国和奥地利从未形成一个国家？是因为阿尔卑斯山成为了它们之间的天然屏障吗？
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There were actually many proposals for an Austro-German state, collectively known as 'Großdeutschland’ (bigger Germany). The Austrian Empire actually favoured this proposal as it would have been the dominant force in this new state. However, there are many reasons why it never happened.
Religion. Many Germans in the north weren't too keen on the idea of being under the hegemony of Catholic Austria. Especially considering how Austria had treated the Hungarian protestants, it made sense why they were suspicious of an Austrian Catholic overlord.
Prussia. As you could probably guess, Prussia was in favour of the non-Austrian German solution (Kleindeutschland) as it would be the natural dominant force. Considering the fact that it was Protestant, Prussia was seen more favourably by the northern German states.
Non-Germans. Only ~20% of the population of the Austrian Empire was actually German, the rest were many other ethnicities, including Hungarians, Italians, Czechs, Romanians, etc. It would've been very hard to incorporate all of these groups into a country which was based around an identity they don't belong to. The only solution to this would've been to abandon these territories, which Austria obviously never would've been okay with.
好问题。
实际上有过许多关于建立奥-德统一国家的建议，统称为"大德意志"（更大的德国）。奥地利帝国实际上倾向于统一这些提议，因为它将成为这个新国家的主导力量。然而，有许多原因导致它从未真正发生。
1.宗教信仰。北方的许多德国人对处于天主教奥地利的霸权之下的想法并不热衷。特别是考虑到奥地利是如何对待匈牙利新教徒的，他们对奥地利的天主教霸主产生怀疑是有道理的。
2.普鲁士。正如你可能猜到的那样，普鲁士赞成成立一个排除奥地利的德国的解决方案（Kleindeutschland），因为它将自然成为主导力量。考虑到它是新教徒，北方的德意志各邦看普鲁士也更顺眼。
3.非德国人。 奥地利帝国的人口中只有20%是真正的德国人，其余的是许多其他民族，包括匈牙利人、意大利人、捷克人、罗马尼亚人等等。要把所有这些群体纳入一个以他们不属于的身份为基础的国家，是非常困难的。唯一的解决办法就是放弃这些领土，而奥地利显然不会同意这样做。
The war between Austria and Prussia. When Austria and Prussia went to war, all efforts to include Austria in a German unx died because:
They had just gone to war.
The relationship between the northern German states and the southern German states had been strained (southern Germany is very Catholic).
Austria embraced a more pluralistic model, becoming Austria-Hungary. The newfound power of the Hungarians would've been enough to veto any kind of attempts to join Bismarck's German state.
Austria was very unstable due to rising nationalism in its lands inhabited by non-German speaking minorities. The North German confederation did not want to deal with that kind of trouble.
Those are the main reasons. Austria was never going to join a united Germany for one simple reason: it was Catholic and would've always naturally become the dominant force in the country.
4.奥地利的实力。 奥地利是一个非常强大的国家，是欧洲的一个大国，因此，它没有理由不成为德国联盟中的主导国家。考虑到哈布斯堡家族几个世纪以来一直是神圣罗马帝国的皇帝，这是有道理的。与奥地利相比，普鲁士在这一点上确实不是什么大问题。
5.奥地利和普鲁士之间的战争。当奥地利和普鲁士开战时，所有将奥地利纳入德国联盟的努力都夭折了，因为：
a.他们刚开了战。
b.北德各州和南德各州之间的关系一直很紧张（南德的天主教徒很多）。
c.奥地利接受了一个更加多元的模式，成为奥匈帝国。匈牙利人新获得的权力足以否决任何形式的加入俾斯麦的德意志国家的企图。
d.由于在非德语少数民族居住的土地上民族主义抬头，奥地利非常不稳定。北德意志邦联不想处理这种麻烦。
这些都是主要原因。奥地利永远不会加入一个统一的德国，原因很简单：它是天主教徒，总是会自然而然地成为该国的主导力量。
Given all this, I'm still quite unsure why Bavaria is part of Germany and not Austria, or even independent. They don't like the rest of us Germans nor do we like them much. They are catholics, while upper Germans are either protestants or atheists, generally speaking. They do have more autonomy along with their own local party CSU working very closely with the larger federal CDU.
鉴于所有这一切，我仍然很不确定为什么巴伐利亚是德国的一部分，而不是奥地利的一部分，甚至是独立的。他们不喜欢我们其他德国人，我们也不太喜欢他们。他们是天主教徒，而上层德国人则是新教徒或无神论者，总的来说。他们确实也有着更多的自治权，同时他们自己的地方党CSU与更大的联邦CDU合作非常密切。
I agree. It's quite strange how Bavaria became part of Germany, considering how they really didn't have that much in common with the north and rarely sided with them historically. I think it's mostly because of the fact that they felt threatened by the French and Austrians, and so saw the Prussian-dominated north Germany as a better protector. Additionally, considering the extensive autonomy that Prussia offered Bavaria, and the lack of autonomy that Austria granted its subjects, I think it would make sense why Bavaria decided to join the Prussian-dominated north Germany.
我同意。巴伐利亚如何成为了德国的一部分，这相当奇怪，考虑到他们与北方真的没有那么多共同点，并且在历史上很少与北方站在一起。我认为这主要是因为他们感到受到了法国人和奥地利人的威胁，所以将普鲁士主导的北德视为更好的保护者。此外，考虑到普鲁士为巴伐利亚提供了广泛的自治权，而奥地利给予其臣民的自治权不足，我认为巴伐利亚决定加入普鲁士主导的北德也是合理的。
Good answer. I would also point out important fact - Austria as a really “nation” did not formed really until break up of the monarchy. What we perceive nowadays as a nation states was not a concept originally upon which Austrian monarchy has been built primarily. Austrian monarchy as well as pre-unified German states were more like a confederations of feudal lands in some sense.
回答得好。我还想指出一个重要的事实--奥地利作为一个真正的"国家"是在君主制解体后才真正形成的。我们今天所看到的民族国家奥地利并不是奥地利君主制最初建立时的概念。奥地利君主制和统一前的德意志国家在某种意义上更像是一个封建土地所有者的联盟。
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Good answer. Although I think point 3 is one of the most important. I recently listened to a podcast interview with a German historian about the 2nd Reich. She said one of the biggest factors holding back Austria from being the leader of a unified German state was that it was, due to the nature of its empire, Eastern and Southern looking with many other competing interests due to the many different ethnicities in the Empire.
很好的答案。虽然我认为第3点是最重要的一点。我最近听了一个关于第二帝国的德国历史学家的播客访谈。她说，阻碍奥地利成为统一的德意志国家领导人的最大因素之一是，由于其帝国的性质，它在其东部和南部有着许多其他竞争性利益纠葛，因为帝国有许多不同的种族。
Very true. A factor which many forget is that Austria wasn't really that German, only around 20% of the population actually lived in Austria and only around 25–30% of the population spoke German as their mother tongue.
非常正确。许多人忘记了一个因素，那就是奥地利并不是真正意义上的德国人的国家，只有大约20%的德国人口真正生活在奥地利，只有大约25-30%的人口将德语作为他们的母语。
“I speak Spanish to God, Italian to Women, French to Men, and German to my Horse.” Charles V, HRE
The Habsburgs looked down on the German states.
"我对上帝说西班牙语，对女人说意大利语，对男人说法语，对我的马说德语。" 查理五世，神圣罗马帝国皇帝
哈布斯堡王朝根本看不起德意志各州。
Great answer.
All arguments are OK, they all make sense for the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. But since it broke down after World War I, giving birth to many nations (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania), Austria became a pretty small republic, and fully “Germanian”, ethnically speaking. That’s the point in time where an integration into a Grossdeutschland state would have made sense, and it still did not happen. Am I right to assume that other European powers (UK, France, Russia) did not allow this to happen, out of fear for a too powerful Germany?
很棒的答案。
所有的论点都没问题，它们对奥匈帝国来说都是说得通的。但是，由于它在第一次世界大战后解体，诞生了许多国家（捷克斯洛伐克、匈牙利、南斯拉夫、罗马尼亚），奥地利成为了一个相当小的共和国，而且从种族上讲，已经完全是"德意志"的了。在这个时间点上，将其整合进一个大德国里是有道理的，但这仍然没有发生。我认为其他欧洲大国（英国、法国、俄罗斯）不允许这种情况发生，是出于对太过强大的德国的担心，这样说对吗？
Well it did happen with the Anschluss in 1938. As you noted with the break up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Austria on its own was left open to incorporation into Germany and at the time the major western powers accepted it as the unification of German speaking people. Of course following the events of WW2, the unification of Germany and Austria is seen in a less favorable light. The Allies made sure to separate out Austria again post WW2 and Austria Austria was bound to neutrality by the 1955 Austrian State Treaty and its constitution. And today the prospect of unifying Germany and Austria is probably not a popular proposition amongst Austrians.
1938年"德奥合并"确实发生了。正如你所注意到的，随着奥匈帝国的解体，奥地利本身就可以并入德国，当时西方大国接受了这一观点，认为这是讲德语的人的统一。当然在二战事件发生后，人们对德奥统一的看法就不那么乐观了。盟军确保在二战后再次将奥地利分离出来，而奥地利受1955年《奥地利国家条约》及其宪法的约束而处于中立状态。而今天，统一德国和奥地利的前景在奥地利人中可能不是一个受欢迎的提议。
Sure, it happened under the Nazi regime, but the whole thing was doomed and it would have hardly come to a happy end. I was talking about the end of World War I and the Weimar Republic. That was the point in time when unifying the German-speaking countries would have made sense, and I wonder why it did not happen.
当然，这是在纳粹政权下发生的，所以它注定要悲剧，很难有一个快乐的结局。我说的是第一次世界大战的结束和魏玛共和国时期。那是统一德语国家的很好的时间点，本来是应该发生的，我想知道为什么没有发生。
As you posit above, there was absolutely a concerted effort on the part of the USA, Britain, and especially France to de-fang Germany with the settlement in the Versailles treaty.
Poland and Czechoslovakia were (re)created as new states from lands held by Prussia/Germany and Austria-Hungary respectively. The former had been variously contested between Prussia and Russia - and would be between Germany and the USSR later - the latter included a large German minority. It’s hardly surprising that they did not take the opportunity to consolidate what was left of Germany with the rump Austrian state.
What’s interesting to me is that, at the time, there was no apparent desire to constitute Germany as a bulwark against the (then nascent) USSR. Something which would be a factor both in international tolerance of the Nazi regime and it’s policies, and in the strong post-War allied occupation and support for West Germany.
正如你在上面提出的，美国、英国，特别是法国完全一致地努力通过凡尔赛条约来消除德国的影响。
波兰和捷克斯洛伐克分别从普鲁士/德国和奥匈帝国的土地上（重新）建立了新的国家。前者曾在普鲁士和俄国之间发生过不同程度的争夺--以后也会在德国和苏联之间发生争夺--后者则包括一个庞大的德国少数民族。所以他们没有利用这个机会将德国剩下的部分与残缺的奥地利国家合并起来，这并不令人惊讶。
对我来说，有趣的是，当时并没有明显的愿望将德国作为对抗（当时新生的）苏联的堡垒。而这将是未来国际社会容忍纳粹政权及其政策的一个因素，也是战后盟国对西德的强硬占领和大力支持的一个因素。
In fact the way Germany shrunk after the two world wars was amazing. It is understandable after the horrors of the war and the Nazi regime, but it does not make it any fairer to the German people. Millions were expelled in an ethnic cleansing that would have been unacceptable in most circumstances. Between them my grandma, who was born in Breslau, the capital city of a German Silesia that is now well deep in Poland as Wroclaw. Same as Pomerania, Prussia/Königsberg, Alsace and other territories. History has never meant to be fair, has it?
事实上，两次世界大战后德国萎缩成这样令人吃惊。在经历了战争和纳粹政权的恐怖之后，这是可以理解的，但这并不意味着对德国人民来说更公平。数百万人在种族清洗中被驱逐，这在大多数情况下都是不可接受的。其中有我的祖母，她出生在布雷斯劳，那是当时德国西里西亚的首府，现在已经成为波兰的弗罗茨瓦夫。与波美拉尼亚、普鲁士/柯尼斯堡、阿尔萨斯和其他领土一样。历史从来就不意味着是公平的，不是吗？
I think we get onto a very slippery slope once we start talking about fairness. Many Germans paid high prices for the follies of their governments in the early twentieth century. But then those governments were (in part at least) democratically elected, and committed terrible crimes - including against some of those same people of course. Many peoples of other European countries never paid much of a price for the crimes committed in their names, in large part this was because they were not committed against their neighbours.
By contrast, the success of the Bundesrepublic has been considerable and is, given the history of Germany, quite remarkable in its own right. Admittedly that owes a certain amount to having had it’s security guaranteed by NATO, but the fact that Germany is one of the most peaceful, stable, wealthy and democratic countries on the planet is extraordinary. The relative equilibrium where Germany is the first among equals in a relatively (compared to its own history at basically any other time post-Rome) united Europe and on friendly terms with all of its neighbours -including those that incorporate territories that have been part of Germany in the past - really would be amazing to basically anybody from any point in history before the late-1990s.
我认为，一旦我们开始谈论公平问题，我们要讨论的东西就会急转直下。许多德国人在20世纪初为其政府的愚蠢行为付出了高昂的代价。但是，这些政府（至少部分）是民主选举产生的，并且犯下了可怕的罪行--当然也包括针对其中一些人的罪行。其他欧洲国家的许多人民从未为以他们的名义犯下的罪行付出多少代价，这在很大程度上是因为这些罪行不是针对他们的邻国犯下的。
相比之下，联邦共和国的成功是相当大的，考虑到德国的历史，它本身就相当了不起。诚然，这在一定程度上归功于北约对其安全的保障，但德国是地球上最和平、最稳定、最富有和最民主的国家之一，这一点是非常了不起的。在一个相对（与它自己的历史相比，在罗马之后的任何其他时间）统一的欧洲，德国是平等中的第一人，并与所有邻国保持友好关系--包括那些过去曾是德国一部分的领土的邻国--这种相对平衡对于1990年代末之前历史上的任何一个人来说，真的会令其感到惊讶。
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from 1707 to 1837 the King of Hanover, one of the larger German entities, was also King of England, which would not have wanted a larger Germany
从1707年到1837年，汉诺威的国王--德国境内最大的诸侯之一，同时也是英格兰的国王，他们不想要一个更大的德国
SO, what religion was Austria predominantly and why did that cause issues with the German Catholics?
那么，奥地利主要是什么宗教，为什么对德国天主教徒来说会是个问题呢？
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Austris was primarily Roman Catholic, it caused problems for the majority of German Protestants.
奥地利人主要是罗马天主教徒，这对大多数德国新教徒来说是个问题。
Why didn’t Austria tried to annex southern German states, especially Bavaria?
为什么奥地利没有试图吞并德国南部的各州，特别是巴伐利亚州？
Wurtemburg and Bavaria were independant kingdoms and the driving force in the Southern Confederation. They had no problem with allying with Austria in the Austro-Prussian War, but certainly didn't want to be ruled by them. The Southern Confederation aligned itself with the Reich , more for a pan-Germanic identity. They still maintained sovereignty even within the Reich
乌滕堡和巴伐利亚在当时是独立的王国，也是“南方联邦”的推动力。他们对在普奥战争中与奥地利结盟没有问题，但肯定不希望被他们统治。南方联邦与帝国结盟，更多的是为了一个泛日耳曼的身份。即使在帝国内部，他们仍然保持着主权。
Watson writes on the one hand that Austria was very powerful and in the same breath, he writes that it was very unstable!!! can you please explain this contradiction?
答主写道，奥地利非常强大，同时，他又写道奥地利非常不稳定！！！你能解释一下这个矛盾吗？
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I was mostly referencing its military strength, economy and size. Austria had a very strong military, quite a powerful economy and it was massive, thus I classed it as being very powerful. It was however consistently in crisis and often found itself struggling with nationalists.
我主要是指其军事力量、经济和规模。奥地利有一支非常强大的军队，有相当强大的经济，而且规模庞大，因此我把它归类为非常强大。然而，它一直处于危机之中，并经常发现自己在与民族主义者作斗争。
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My wife got me to watch “Elizabeth” with English subtitles and she was so impressed she ordered the import DVD. That got us to go down the rabbit hole of 19th century Habsburg history.
Empires can really only hold together by force. Europe was exhausted after the Napoleonic wars and central Europe struggled with nationalist demands while western europe struggled with socialist demands.
But though she was flaky, I really don't think she started the downfall of the Habsburgs or of the Empire. Empires just can't survive in the modern world.
我的妻子让我看了有英文字幕的《伊丽莎白》，她印象非常深刻，于是订购了进口DVD。这让我们沉迷于19世纪哈布斯堡的历史。
帝国真的只能靠武力来维持。拿破仑战争后，欧洲疲惫不堪，中欧在民族主义崛起下挣扎，而西欧则在社会主义崛起下挣扎。
但是，尽管她很轻浮，我真的不认为是她开始了哈布斯堡家族或帝国的衰落。帝国在现代世界中是无法生存的。
In the map provided, what does the red border represent? It can’t be “German” areas as it excludes (for example) East Prussia and includes (for example) Bohemia and Moravia.
在你提供的地图中，红色边界代表什么？它不可能是"德国"地区，因为它不包括（例如）东普鲁士，却包括（例如）波西米亚和摩拉维亚。
The red lines represent the borders of the German Confederation, which was an association of German(ish) states dedicated to protecting German sovereignty. It was de facto ruled by Austria as the guy in charge was also the emperor of Austria.
As for why Bohemia and Moravia were part of this confederation, it's because Austria owned it and the German states wanted Austria to be a strong power in the confederation.
红线代表德意志联邦的边界，它是一个致力于保护德国主权的德意志（人）国家联盟。它事实上是由奥地利统治的，因为负责人也是奥地利的皇帝。
至于为什么波希米亚和摩拉维亚是这个联邦的一部分，那是因为奥地利拥有它，而德意志各州希望奥地利成为联邦中的一个主导强国。
Good explanation. I would add names to this - the Hohenzollerns (of Prussia & Swabia) vs. the Hapsburg dynasty in the south (Austria). That , with religion, differences inthe north-south cultures, and even separate dialects, produced a natural schism between them.
Only one house would control the entire “Germanic” region, if united. But the Prussians were much more stern and war-like; the Austrians, next to France, much more cultured.
很好的解释。我还要加上一些名字--霍亨索伦家族（普鲁士&斯瓦比亚）与南方的哈布斯堡王朝（奥地利）。这一点，加上宗教、南北文化的差异，甚至不同的方言，在他们之间产生了自然的分裂。
如果联合起来，只有一个家族可以控制整个"日耳曼"地区。但普鲁士人更严厉，更好战；奥地利人在法国旁边，更有文化。
Perhaps militaristic fits better than warlike. It would be quite silly to make the claim that the French or Austrian empires weren't just as warlike as Prussia. Without wars there are no empires.
Though I fully agree that the dynasty names should be added for a full picture!
也许军国主义比好战更适合。但如果你说法国或奥地利帝国不像普鲁士一样好战，那就太傻了。没有战争哪来的帝国。
虽然我完全同意应该增加王朝的名称，以了解全貌。
Very simple.
Austria was a very refined and sophisticated nation. Vienna was the cultural center of Europe where Mozart and even Beethoven (German) studied and composed. The political and government structure was well managed.
The Germans were still attempting to refine their culture and society from the elements of the early Germanic tribes --- ruthless, warlike and unsophisticated. They showed their ruthless nature in the massive killing and murdering of many innocent civilians in World War II after they stole all their personal properties with the allowance and blessings of their leaders.
Why would Austria want to be associated with such a society?
Only forced to when a inbred warlike country Germany finally invades them with the back stabbing assistance from the Brits in 1937.
非常简单。
奥地利是一个非常高雅和成熟的国家。维也纳是欧洲的文化中心，莫扎特甚至贝多芬（德国人）在这里学习和创作。政治和政府结构管理良好。
日耳曼人仍然试图从早期日耳曼部落的元素中提炼出他们的文化和社会--无情、好战和不成熟。在第二次世界大战中，他们在其领导人的允许和祝福下窃取了许多无辜平民的所有个人财产后，在大规模的杀戮和谋杀中显示了他们无情的本质。
奥地利为什么要与这样的社会发生联系？
只是在1937年一个近亲繁殖的好战国家德国在英国人的背后的协助下最终入侵时他们（奥地利）才被迫合并。
The Austro-Hungarian Empire. Austria-Hungary covered a great many square kilometres & the populations in those square kilometres were not Germanic. If you had looked in the Viennese ‘phonebook then, you would have seen that only about a quarter to a third of the population had Germanic names.
If you had looked in the Berlin ‘phonebook, you would have seen that the names were almost all Germanic.
So altho’ German politicians might have wanted to form a “Greater Germany”, Austria-Hungary was not interested in being a Greater Germanic state, as they were not that Germanic.
Note that Anschluss in 1938 was the takeover of a much reduced Germanic Austria, the Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Moravians, Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Bosnians, Croats, Slovenes etc all having gone off into their own post-Versailles countries.
Nothing to do with the Alps at all.
奥匈帝国。奥匈帝国的国土面积很大，而这些国土内的人口不都是日耳曼人。如果你看过维也纳的"电话簿"，你会发现只有大约四分之一到三分之一的人口有日耳曼语的名字。
如果你看一下柏林的"电话簿"，你就会发现，这些名字几乎都是日耳曼语。
因此，尽管德国的政治家们可能希望形成一个"大德意志"，但奥匈帝国对成为一个大日耳曼国家并不感兴趣，因为他们并不是那么地“日耳曼人”。
请注意，1938年的 "德奥合并"（Anschluss）是对规模已经大大缩小的日耳曼人的奥地利的接管，匈牙利人、捷克人、斯洛伐克人、摩拉维亚人、罗马尼亚人、塞尔维亚人、保加利亚人、波斯尼亚人、克罗地亚人、斯洛文尼亚人等都在战后建立了各自的国家。
这跟阿尔卑斯山完全没有关系。
, lives in Germany
Germany did not exist before 1871. It was formed during the Franco-Prussian War. It was formed from several independent countries that decided to form a new Empire based on common ties from the previous Holy Roman Empire and a common (enough) culture.
The newly formed Empire was dominated by Prussia.
Austria, or rather Austria-Hungary at that time, was already an established independent power that had no interest in becoming dependent on Prussia.
After WWII there has never really been a large interest in uniting the countries except as (nominal) equals in a larger unx. But also, you can be sure that any such talk would be quickly shut down because of the signal this could potentially send to other nations.
德国在1871年之前并不存在。它是在普法战争期间形成的。它是由几个独立的国家组成的，这些国家决定在以前神圣罗马帝国的共同纽带和共同（足够）文化的基础上形成一个新帝国。
新成立的帝国由普鲁士主导。
奥地利，或者说当时的奥匈帝国，已经是一个成熟的独立国家，对成为普鲁士的附属国没有兴趣。
二战后，更是除了在一个更大的联盟中作为（名义上）平等的政府相处，从来没有过真正对统一所有这些日耳曼国家产生过很大的兴趣。但是，你也可以肯定，任何这样的谈话都会被迅速噤声，因为这有可能向其他国家发出某种信号。