煮酒论史：人类历史上血脉延续最长的王朝是哪一个？
What is the longest blood-line dynasty in human history?
译文简介
我知道如果你用谷歌搜索，他会说是日本的大和王朝。这是今天仍然存在的最长的世袭王朝，已经持续了1500年（或据称如此），因此它肯定成为有史以来最长的世袭王朝的领跑者。有没有可以回溯的持续时间更长的血统？我觉得埃及或中国将成为竞争者，因为它们在整个人类历史上都存在过。
正文翻译
What is the longest blood-line dynasty in human history?
人类历史上血脉延续最长的王朝是哪一个？
人类历史上血脉延续最长的王朝是哪一个？
I know if you google this, it says the Yamato Dynasty in Japan. This is the longest hereditary dynasty that still exists today, and having lasted 1500 years (or so it is claimed) this has to be a front-runner for one of the longest ever.
我知道如果你用谷歌搜索，他会说是日本的大和王朝。这是今天仍然存在的最长的世袭王朝，已经持续了1500年（或据称如此），因此它肯定成为有史以来最长的世袭王朝的领跑者。
Are there any that lasted longer where a bloodline could be traced all they way back? I feel like Egypt or China would have to be contenders since they have both been around for basically all of human history.
有没有可以回溯的持续时间更长的血统？我觉得埃及或中国将成为竞争者，因为它们在整个人类历史上都存在过。
有没有可以回溯的持续时间更长的血统？我觉得埃及或中国将成为竞争者，因为它们在整个人类历史上都存在过。
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They aren't royals but the bloodline of Confucius has been traced until today and has remained as an important and influential family all this time
他们不是皇室成员，但孔子的血统一直延续到今天，一直是一个重要而有影响力的家族
Every so often one of Confucius' known descendants takes and fails a university entrance exam and it usually gives rise to a few humorous news articles.
孔子的一个已知后代参加一次大学入学考试，但没有通过，这引起了一些诙谐的新闻报道。
William Hung from American Idol way back in the day is currently the 73rd Generation descendant..
来自美国的爱豆，威廉孔，是孔子当今的第73代传人
I just spat out my drink
喷了
Look up Joseph stalin granddaughter or karl Marx great grandson. It's great
查一下约瑟夫斯大林的孙女或卡尔马克思的曾孙。很神奇。
The world is such a weird place.
世界真是个很神奇的地方。
Actually, it may have started as a royal bloodline. Confucious claimed descent from King Tang, who lived over a thousand years before him.
实际上，它可能是从皇室血统开始的。孔夫子声称是唐王室的后裔，唐王存在于他出生之前一千多年。
Until recently the eldest male in each generation of Confucious' direct descendants still inherits the royal title of Duke Yansheng. They inherit the official position of "Sacrificial Official to Confucius" in the Republic or China and was paid the same as cabinet ministers
There are similar arrangements for the descendants of the other Four Sages like Mencius and even descendants of Taoist founder Zhang Daoling
直到最近，孔夫子直系后代中的长子仍然继承了衍圣公的皇家头衔。他们在共和国或中国继承了“孔子祭祀官”的官职，与内阁大臣的报酬相同。
对其他四圣的后代，如孟子，甚至道家创始人张道陵的后代，也有类似的安排
Wouldn’t Lao Tzu be considered the founder of Taoism?
老子没有被认为是道教的创始人吗？
What does the position entails in modern society? They're getting paid as a minister, they must be doing something and not just inherited the title, right?
在现代社会中该职位意味着什么？他们以部长的身份获得报酬，他们必须做些事情，而不仅仅是继承头衔，对吗？
The main duty of Duke Yansheng is to conduct Confucius ceremonies on Confucius' birthday and to continue the lineage. But the last Duke Yansheng , Kung Te-cheng, actually held the position of Education Minister in Republic of China so he earned his pay. After his death in 2008, the family agreed to convert the sacrificial official appointment into an unpaid post
衍圣公的主要职责是在孔子诞辰之际举行祭祀孔子的仪式并延续血统。但是最后一位衍圣公孔德成实际上是民国教育部长，所以他赚了钱。在2008年去世后，一家人同意将祭祀的正式任命转为无薪职位。
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I think the point is that they were influential up until at least 1911, and remain so to some degree still in Taiwan. Even if you only count up until the end of the Qing thats 2,400 years. Sure beats the Hapsburgs.
我认为关键是他们至少在1911年之前都具有影响力，并且在某种程度上仍在台湾保持着影响力。即使你只算到清末那2400年。也肯定能击败哈布斯堡家族。
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So they always have at least on male descendant? Incredible.
所以他们总是有男性长子吗？太不可思议了。
Polygamy has been traditionally common in China
一夫多妻制是中国过去的传统
My family got confirmed as part of the House of Kong (Confucius’ bloodline). Haven’t talked to my relatives who actually went to China and got it confirmed but I feel like it’s more of a “hey there’s this fee you have to pay to be confirmed...” and anyone with a slight claim to being a descendant can be confirmed. No clue what the actual process is like though, so if anyone can enlighten me on that I’d appreciate it
我的家人被确认为孔子血统的一部分。没和我真正去过中国的亲戚交谈过，但得到了证实，但我觉得这更多的是“嘿，你得付笔费用才能确认……”以及任何稍微声称自己是后裔的人都可以得到证实。不知道实际的过程是什么样，所以如果有人可以启发我，我将不胜感激.
It probably depends how you tackle the Egyptian and Sumerian King Lists and their long reigns.
这可能取决于你如何看待埃及和苏美尔国王的名单和他们的长期统治。
This was my first thought, but some cursory reading shows 31 different dynasties ruling over unified Egypt, with the longest only lasting about 250 years. Im sure there was some crossover in the genrpool, but the Egyptians themselves recorded them as separate linieage dynasties.
这也是我最初的想法，但一些粗略的阅读显示，31个不同的朝代统治着统一的埃及，最长的只有250年左右。我确信在基因库中这些统治者会有一些交叉，但埃及人自己把它们记录为单独的时代。
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Does this include ptolemaic dynasty whom where in fact Macedonian/Greek rulers for over 300 years?
这是否包括马其顿/希腊统治者统治超过300年的托勒密王朝？
About 275, and apparently it didn't. The 18th Dynasty which founded the New Kingdom lasted over 250 as well, about 25 years longer than the other pre-Ptolemaic ones.
大约275年，并且显然不包括。建立新王国的第18王朝也持续了250多年，比托勒密王朝前的其他王朝长了大约25年。
I was specifically counting "native" dynasties. The main thing I find interesting is that this seems counter to the common narative of Egypt being in stasis for thousands of years. That said, its possible to have ruler change without regime change, as it were.
我特别去计算了其“本土”王朝。 我觉得有趣的是，这似乎与“埃及几千年来一直处于停滞状态”的常见叙述背道而驰。尽管如此，在不改变政权的情况下改变统治者也是可能的。
Oh man, no, Egypt was definitely never in stasis. It had very clear continuity, with one notable exception, but definitely not stasis.
哦，不，埃及绝对不是停滞不变的。它有非常明显的连续性，其中有一个明显的例外，但绝对不是停滞。
There's a very strong narrative that nothing changed much in pharonic egypt.
有一个非常有力的叙述说，在法老时代的埃及没有什么变化。
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Do you mean by the pharaohs themselves, or by modern people who idealize Egyptians as the birthplace of white civilization for some reason? Because narratives really don't mean shit either way.
你是说法老们自己，还是现代人出于某种原因把埃及人理想化为白人文明的发源地？因为叙述真的说明不了什么。
You can believe that if you want, and the people who control the narrative will go on controlling civilization.
你可以相信你愿意相信的，控制叙事的人会继续控制着文明。
The Egyptian dynasties are historical divisions, not bloodline dynasties. The dynasties were invented later in history, in Ptolemaic (Greek) Egypt, to divide history up according to major events or the perceived power of royal authority during a period.
But you're right, and even within one dynasty the succession is not always by bloodline or even by relation. One famous example is the succession of Ay by Horemheb, a commoner and commander of the army who deposed Ay and ended the by then extremely unpopular 18th dynasty; Horemheb is counted as the last king of that dynasty. Kings are also sometimes succeeded by their brothers, uncles, etc; sometimes within the same dynasty, sometimes introducing a new dynasty, one ruling family sometimes extending through several successive dynasties.
Also, the figure of 31 dynasties is a figure that includes not only those ruling over unified Egypt (which would be 3+4+5+6, 12+13, 18+19+20, and 25 forward, several of the latter being foreign), but also several ruling simultaneously over parts of a fragmented Egypt during the Intermediate Periods plus one probably completely fictitious dynasty (the 7th, described as "70 kings in 70 days" and no names of kings known).
埃及王朝是历史学为了分辨而进行人为分段的，而不是以血脉为根据进行分段的朝代。王朝是在后面的历史中发明的（注：类似于东西汉是后来的历史学家发明的，当时的人不会称自己为“东/西汉人”），在托勒密（希腊）埃时代，则根据重大事件或在一段时期内对皇家权威感知的权力来划分历史。
但你是对的，即使在一个朝代里，继承也不总是由血统或关系决定的。 一个著名的例子是哈伦海布继承了埃及，他是一位平民和军队指挥官，他推翻了上一个王朝，让当时极不受欢迎的第18王朝结束；哈伦海布被认为是那个王朝的最后一位国王。王位有时也由他们的兄弟、叔叔等继承；有时算作在同一个朝代内，有时则算作是一个新的王朝，一个统治家族有时可能分裂为几个连续的朝代。
此外，31个王朝的朝代数不仅包括统治统一埃及的朝代（其中包括3、4、5、6、12、13、18、19、20和25以及后来的，其中有几个是外国的），也有几个同时在埃及分裂时期统治着埃及不同的部分，加上一个可能是完全虚构的王朝（第七王朝，被描述为“70天内70个国王的统治”，却没有留下国王的名字）。
The imperial Japanese dynasty claims to go back to 660 BC. Im not an expert in Japanese history, so I dont know if this is a continual line or not. But that would be the oldest.
日本皇朝声称可以追溯到公元前660年。我不是日本历史的专家，所以我不知道这是否是一个连续的血脉。如果是那将是最古老的。
Many of the claims made by the imperial Japanese dynasty are not taken seriously even among Japanese scholars.
For instance, traditional Japanese historiography claim that the Japanese imperial family has always ruled Japan, and cite examples of Chinese envoys meeting with various rulers of Japan as meetings with the ancestors of the Japanese emperors.
However, Chinese records placed most of these meetings in Kyushu, far from the Imperial family's homeland in central Japan. Traditionally Japanese historians explained this as calculation errors made by Chinese envoys when recording the navigation for their journeys.
However, in 1784, while digging an irrigation ditch, farmers discovered a gold seal which was given as a gift to one of these ancient Japanese kings and mentioned in the Chinese record. It was discovered in Kyushu, right where the navigation records said it was supposed to be.
日本皇朝的许多主张甚至在日本学者中也没有受到重视。
例如，日本传统史学声称日本皇室一直统治着日本，并列举了与日本不同统治者会面的中国使节与日本天皇的会面的例子。
但是，根据中国的记录，这些会面大部分都在九州举行，而九州远离皇室在日本中部的根据地。传统上，日本历史学家将其解释为中国使节在记录航行旅程时所犯的计算错误。
但是，在1784年，一个农民在挖一个灌溉沟渠时发现了一个金印章，这是当时中国皇帝送给这些古代日本国王的礼物之一，并在中国记录中提到过。它是在九州发现的，就在旅行记录所说的正确位置。
I'm reminded of a story I read about envoys from Queen Himiko's court petitioned the Cao-Wei dominated Han court for tribute and the Caos thought it so hilarious they elected not to kill the envoys and sent them back to Japan with riches like frayed silk and bronze trinkets. The Japanese took them seriously and sent envoys for "tribute" until the Jin got tired of it in the 240s.
我想起了一个故事，我读到了皇后卑弥呼朝廷的使者向曹魏统治的汉朝要求贡品，曹操觉得这太滑稽了，于是他们选择不杀死特使，并用如旧的丝绸和磨损的青铜饰品把他们送回日本。日本对此很认真对待，并且在后来继续派遣使者来要求“贡品”，直到240年的晋朝对此感到厌倦了，就不理会了。
You may be confusing multiple stories together. In the commonly accepted translation (can find an example here), Queen Himiko sent Cao-Wei a tribute of slaves and cloths.
Cao-Wei in turn gifted to her a gold seal acknowledging her as Queen of Wa, as well as a number of bronze mirrors (chosen because the Japanese of the time did not have the metalworking skills needed to make the mirrors).
In doing so, they accepted Himiko and her Wa kingdom's tribute payment, making them a fairly normal Chinese tributary state.
你可能把多个故事混淆在了一起。在公认的翻译中（可以在这里找到一个例子），卑弥呼送给曹魏奴隶和布的贡品。
曹魏又给了她一个金印，承认她是倭女王，以及一些铜镜（选择这个是因为当时的日本人没有制造镜子所需的金工技能）。
为此，他们接受了卑弥呼和她的倭王国的贡品，使他们成为一个相当普通的中国朝贡国。
The Japanese imperial line is likely Korean in origin, which makes sense given the trade happening between the two as early as the Jomon period (maybe even earlier). One needs only to look at the concentration of dolmens near Busan and Kyushu to see an early evidence of shared culture or perhaps even immigration.
日本的帝国路线可能起源于朝鲜，这是有道理的，因为两者之间的贸易最早发生在绳文时代（甚至可能更早）。人们只需要看看釜山和九州附近的“支石墓”的集中情况，就可以看到共同文化甚至移民的早期证据。
There is definitely some historical connection between the ancient Japanese aristocracy, including the royal family, and Korea. But the nature of the relationship is not entirely clear, and we do not have enough evidence to confidently say that the Japanese imperial line is likely Korean in origin.
For instance, the early Japanese resettled many craftsman from Korea to Japan, and rewarded some of them with noble titles in exchange for making the crossing. The fact that many craftsmen in Japan had Korean origins is already enough to explain many of the cultural similarities.
That said, many scholars have bought into a popular conspiracy theory that the reason why the Japanese imperial family refuses access to the imperial tombs is that inside there are artifacts that conclusively prove that the imperial family actually originates from Korean immigrants.
包括王室在内的古代日本贵族与韩国之间确实存在一定的历史联系。但是这种关系的性质尚未完全清楚，我们没有足够的证据来自信地说日本皇室血脉可能起源于朝鲜。
例如，早期的日本人将许多手工艺人从韩国安置到日本，并奖励其中一些人以贵族头衔作为交换。日本的许多工匠都来自韩国，这一事实可以说明两者许多文化上的相似之处。
尽管如此，许多学者已经接受了一种流行的阴谋论，即日本皇室拒绝开放皇室陵墓的原因是其内部存在的文物可以最终证明皇室实际上是来自韩国移民的。
First time I've ever heard this described as a "conspiracy theory." I first read about this while in Japan on business 20+ years ago and it was always regarded as fact [IE, IHA did not want research into this early tomb as it would disprove the myth].
我第一次听到说这种说法是“阴谋论。” 我20年前在日本出差时第一次读到这篇文章，它一直被认为是事实[皇室不想对这个早期的坟墓进行研究，因为它会推翻神话理论]。
I wouldn’t be surprised if Japan lied about their history to make them seem more legitimate. They do that now. Or a much nicer term, denial.
如果日本谎称自己的历史，以使看起来更加合法，我不会感到惊讶。他们现在就这么做。 或者有更好的说法，否认。
To be fair, it's not just Japan. Even when they don't directly lie about their own history, most countries tend to interpret unresolved historical questions in the most favorable way possible for their own legitimacy.
公平地说，不仅仅是日本。 即使他们不直接谎报自己的历史，大多数国家也倾向于以最有利的方式解释尚未解决的历史问题，以维护自己的合法性。
Yeah, you're right. Except Germany. They've been on it about apologizing for the holocaust and making amends for the atrocities created by Hitler. They should actually be applauded and be modeled after bc they've basically changed their entire country culturally. That's pretty damn awesome, to me.
是的，你是对的。德国除外。他们一直在为大屠杀道歉，为希特勒制造的暴行道歉。他们实际上应该受到赞扬，并被效仿。因为他们基本上改变了他们整个国家的文化。这对我来说真是太棒了。
I think it definitely deserves some appreciation, but in many ways its the exception that proves the rule.
In the years immediately after World War 2, there were a lot of Germans who refused to acknowledge the crimes of Nazism, just as how there had been the "stabbed in the back" theory after World War 1.
It is the overwhelming evidence and the sheer scale and horror of the Holocaust that forced the German people to acknowledge what they had done and make amends. Even then, the investigation into the Holocaust was led by the occupying forces - plenty of Germans would have been happy to feign ignorance and turn a blind eye, the way that people did in Japan, where occupying forces were rushing to re-militarize Japan and did not think it was valuable to raise awareness of Japanese atrocities.
我认为它绝对值得一些赞赏，但在许多方面，它被证明只是这个规则的例外。
在第二次世界大战刚结束的几年里，有很多德国人拒绝承认纳粹主义的罪行，就像第一次世界大战后出现了“背刺”理论一样。
正是压倒性的证据，浩劫的规模和恐怖，迫使德国人民承认自己的所作所为和作出了修正。即使到那时，对大屠杀的调查还是由占领军领导的-很多德国人本来很乐意装无知并视而不见，就像现在的日本那样，但日本的占领军当时正急于将日本重新军事化。认为提高对日本暴行的认识并没有价值。
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The modern day bagration of Georgia are a millennium old I believe
我相信，格鲁吉亚的巴格拉基昂的血脉已经有一千年了
TIL my favorite CK2 byzantine dynasty is still alive and well.
我最喜欢的CK2拜占庭王朝仍然健在。
I hope you ported them from ck2 to eu4. Then eu4 to vicky2. Then vicky2 to hoi4. Then hoi4 to stellaris.
我希望你把它们从ck2（十字军之王）移植到eu4（欧陆风云）。 然后从eu4移植到vicky2（维多利亚）。 然后从vicky2到hoi4（钢铁雄心）。然后hoi4到stellaris（群星）。
nah, I'm waiting til I can port it to vicky3
不，我在等，直到我能把它移植到维多利亚3
Thats gonna be a long wait
那你有得等了
It's not unbroken, but the modern British royal family can trace lineage back to Alfred the Great, so they say.
这并不是一成不变的，但他们说现代英国皇室可以追溯到阿尔弗雷德大帝。
Is Alfred the Great related to William the Conqueror? It seems like every European monarch can trace themselves to every other country in Europe's royalty somehow.
阿尔弗雷德大帝与征服者威廉有关吗？似乎每个欧洲君主都能以某种方式追溯到欧洲每一个其他国家的皇室中。
Not sure about William the Conqueror, but his wife, Matilda of Flanders, was a descendant. Ælfthryth, Alfred the Great’s daughter, married the Count of Flanders.
不确定征服者威廉，但他的妻子，弗兰德斯的马蒂尔达，是其一个后裔。埃夫特赫里赫，阿尔弗雷德大帝的女儿，嫁给了弗兰德斯伯爵。
Also, William's son Henry married the granddaughter of Edward the Exlie who was from the same house as Alfred. Their daughter Matilda sired the Plantagenet dynasty.
同样，威廉的儿子亨利与爱德华·埃斯利的孙女结婚，后者与阿尔弗雷德是同一个家族。他们的女儿玛蒂尔达开创了金雀花王朝。
Basically. It's a shame that the Norman conquest wiped out Old English, it was a very ancient and unique Germanic language.
基本上。诺曼人的征服消灭了旧英语，这是一种非常古老而独特的日耳曼语言，真是令人遗憾。
He was NOT related to Alfred the Great. William the conqueror was the great great grandson of Duke Richard II of Normandy, whose sister was married to Ethelred II Unraed (who is called "the unready" today, but it really means "the ill adviced". It's a pun since his name mean Noble Advice). Ethelred was the great great grandson of Alfred the Great.
That's one of the reasons why there was this big succession crisis after Edward the Confessor. NONE of the pretenders were directly descended from Alfred the Great. Harorld was Edwards Brother-in-Law, Harald Hardrada was the son of Magnus (who had been the chosen successor of Hardecnut, the king before Edward the Confessor beford Edward usurped the throne as a descendant of the king before Cnut) and William the Conqueror was the first cousin once removed but never in the patrilinear line.
他与阿尔弗雷德大帝无关。征服者威廉是诺曼底公爵理查德二世的玄孙，理查德的姐姐嫁给了“无准备者”埃塞尔雷德二世 (他今天被称为“无准备者”，但它真正的意思是“决策无方者”。这是双关语，因为他的名字的意思是明智的决策)。 埃塞尔雷德是阿尔弗雷德大帝的曾孙。 这就是为什么在忏悔者爱德华之后发生了这场如此之大的继承危机的原因之一（注：爱德华死后，英格兰的哈罗德、挪威的哈拉尔、法国的威廉共同争夺英格兰王位）。这里面没有一个王位觊觎者是阿尔弗雷德大帝的直接后裔。哈罗德是爱德华兹的连襟，哈拉尔·哈德拉达是马格努斯的儿子 （马格努斯是哈得克努特（克努特二世）的继承人，克努特二世是忏悔者爱德华之前的国王，而爱德华作为克努特大帝之前的国王的继承者又篡夺了克努特二世继承者的王位）征服者威廉是曾经被移除但从未出现在父系线上的表亲。
Ethelraed had many sons. The two eldest died. The third was king of England (Edmund Ironside) before Cnut drove him away. Edward the Confessor was one of Aethelraeds youngest sons, so when Cnut was dead he summoned his forces and drove off Cnuts successor. Edward the Confessor had no sons, so he summoned back Edmund Ironsides son, Edward the Exile to be his chosen successor. But Edward the Exile died before Edward the Confessor and had no male heirs. He did have a daughter though, Margaret, who married Malcolm the III of Scotland and the Windsors descend from that unx (as do most kings of england since Henry I, one of Williams the Conquerers sons, married Matilda the daughter of Malcolm III of Scotland in order to make sure that they had the blood of Alfred the Great in their veins and as such were "super legitimate".
Are you confused yet?
不过如今的温莎王室倒是与阿尔弗雷德大帝是有关的。
埃塞尔雷德有很多儿子。长子和次子先去世了。第三个是英格兰国王（埃德蒙·伊伦赛德），然后克努特（丹麦维京入侵者）把他赶走了。忏悔者爱德华是埃塞尔雷德最小的儿子之一，所以当克努特死后，他召集了他的部队，赶走了克努特的继任者（）。忏悔者爱德华没有儿子，所以他召集埃德蒙·伊伦赛德斯的儿子，“流亡者”爱德华成为他选定的继承人。但流亡者爱德华死在忏悔者爱德华之前，也没有男性继承人。但他确实有一个女儿，玛格丽特，她嫁给了苏格兰的马尔科姆三世和温莎家族的后裔 (自从威廉斯的儿子亨利一世与苏格兰的马尔科姆三世的女儿马蒂尔达结婚之后，为确保他们的血脉中有阿尔弗雷德大帝的成分，英格兰的大多数国王都与苏格兰王室联姻，以此证明他们是“超级合法的”。
看到现在你还没晕吗？