煮酒论史：为什么历史上东亚转入了长期孤立的状态？（上）
Why did east asia turn into a long period of isolation?
译文简介
青梅煮酒，共论英雄。
正文翻译
Why did east asia turn into a long period of isolation?
为什么历史上东亚转入了长期孤立的状态？
为什么历史上东亚转入了长期孤立的状态？
I heard east Asia was in a period of isolation prior to European empires forcing them out of it. Why did they isolate themselves in the first place? Weren't China or Japan benefitting from trade with India or Indonesia or the silk road even? Or did they have enough resources to rely on themselves alone? How about the Siberian tribes or Mongolia, were they part of the isolation?
我听说东亚在欧洲帝国主义强行让他们开放之前都处于孤立之中。首先他们为什么要孤立自己？中国或日本甚至不是从与印度，印度尼西亚或丝绸之路的贸易中受益吗？还是他们有足够的资源来自给自足？西伯利亚部落或蒙古部落呢，他们也是孤立的一部分吗？
我听说东亚在欧洲帝国主义强行让他们开放之前都处于孤立之中。首先他们为什么要孤立自己？中国或日本甚至不是从与印度，印度尼西亚或丝绸之路的贸易中受益吗？还是他们有足够的资源来自给自足？西伯利亚部落或蒙古部落呢，他们也是孤立的一部分吗？
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That idea is sort of outdated in present historiography, from what I can tell. There were plenty of European visitors to China in the early modern period, and China made use of some of their technology, especially weapons (look up red barbarian cannons). Besides that, the 18th century saw the Chinese conquest of much of Central Asia, which isn’t exactly an insular move.
据我所知，这种想法在现代史学中已经过时了。近代早期有很多欧洲的拜访者来到中国，中国也利用了他们的一些技术，特别是武器（查阅红色野蛮人的大炮）。除此之外，在18世纪，中国人征服了中亚大部分地区，这并不是一个孤立的举动。
While it wasn't complete isolation, it was certainly something that did happen.
Let's take the Mission to China for example. In the late 16th century the Jesuits started to try and bring Christianity to China. They had already been active in India and Japan but it was even harder in China. Especially as they weren't allowed to travel the country. So they did their converting around Macau and had some success.
Because the Jesuits were cartographers, astronomists, mathematicians, painters and linguists, they finally managed to gain entry into the court of the Chinese Emperor. Not as missionaries primarily, but as foreign experts invited to exchange knowledge. They did a bunch of missionary work but most of their time was spent painting or with scientific discourse. They became employees and sort of prisoners. All very much different from how missionary work usually worked (with Europeans dictating the terms).
It was only the Jesuits though that gained this access. Other orders like the Dominican or Benedictines weren't allowed entry as they refused to accommodate to local rites and customs. They were also much more interested in converting from the bottom up rather than top down like the Jesuits who focused on converting local elites.
This accommodation led to heavy disputes in Europe and the Pope finally banned the practise. The Chinese Emperor was pissed and kicked everyone but his favourite Jesuits out of his realm. Those few stayed and continued their work but missionary work was stopped and the mission to China was effectively over.
What made China so different (also Japan to a certain degree) was how well organised and ruled those places were. The European missionaries couldn't dictate terms like they could elsewhere as they were so incredibly far from Europe and a few ships weren't enough to subdue the locals. Because of how centralised the power was, it was also harder to play local rulers against each other. And lastly, the difference in scientific and "civilised" process wasn't that great or perceived as such, so it was actually the Chinese who thought themselves superior to the Europeans. So less reason to give up their own culture and religion for something foreign and powerless.
尽管它不是完全孤立的，但在某种程度上确实可以这么说。
让我们以到中国传教的传教士为例。 16世纪后期，耶稣会教士开始尝试将基督教带到中国。他们在印度和日本已经很活跃，但在中国遭遇重重困难。尤其是因为他们不能去乡下旅行。所以他们只能在澳门附近转悠，也取得了一些成功。
由于耶稣会士一般是制图师，天文学家，数学家，画家和语言学家，因此他们最终设法进入了中国皇帝的宫廷中。但主要不是作为传教士，而是作为被邀请的外国专家交流知识。他们做了很多宣教工作，但大部分时间都花在绘画或科学演讲上。他们成了雇员和囚徒。 所有这些都与传教工作通常的运作方式（欧洲人发号施令）有很大的不同。
而且只有耶稣会士获得了这个机会。 其他人的要求（如多米尼加或本笃会）由于拒绝接受当地的礼俗和习俗而被禁止入境。他们也更感兴趣的是从下到上的转变，而不是像耶稣会士那样专注于转变当地精英。
这种妥协在欧洲引起了激烈的争执，而教皇最终禁止了这种做法。中国皇帝很生气，把除了他最喜欢的耶稣会士以外的所有人踢了出去。那几个人留下来继续他们的工作，但宣教工作停止了，对中国的宣教实际上也结束了。
使中国如此与众不同（在某种程度上也与日本不同）的是，这些地方的组织和统治程度如何。欧洲传教士无法像其他地方那样规定条件，因为他们离欧洲如此之遥远，而且几艘船还不足以制服当地人。由于权力的集中程度，与当地统治者相互对抗也更加困难。 最后，两者科学和“文明”的差异并不是那么大，也不是被认为如此，所以实际上是中国人认为自己优于欧洲人。所以他们更没有理由为了一些外来的、没什么用的东西去放弃自己的宗教和文化了。
I like to add something more to this excellent post. East Asian elites thought Christianity as some sort of joke and a threat. Confucianism teaches that "子不語怪力亂神" "A learned man never talks about supernatural beings and such phenomenons" in other words, please don't get fooled by cults who claim to perform all kinds of sorcery and magic (walking on water and etc) and promise you glories in your afterlife. Buddhism and other traditional religions were tacitly tolerated, but why the hell would Confucians tolerate this foreign religion that is Christianity which arrogantly denied their tradition and custom?
我想在这篇出色的回复中添加更多内容。东亚精英认为基督教是一种笑话和威胁。儒家教导“子不语怪力乱神”。“一个博学的人从不谈论超自然的生物和这种现象”，换句话说就是，请不要被声称执行各种巫术和魔法（在水上行走等）并承诺给你的来世带来荣耀的邪教所愚弄。 佛教和其他传统宗教被容许，但是为什么儒家要容忍这种外来的宗教信仰，即基督教，狂妄地否认他们的传统和习俗？
朝鲜是一个特例，不过即使在那时，朝鲜政府也出于类似原因积极驱逐基督徒。
That sounds interesting!
History as well as Anthropology and Cultural Sciences classes would really benefit from more direct exchange. We were sitting in a seminary hall in Europe talking and speculating about Jesuits in China and how they might have been seen as, with only their letters and a few translated Chinese letters to guide us. When we could have has some cooperation with Chinese students and learn the actual, deeper meaning behind cultural aspects.
Really got to improve international research. The internet should make it so simple!
听起来很有趣！
历史，人类学和文化科学课将真正受益于更直接的交流。我们曾经只是坐在欧洲的一间神学院的大厅里，凭借着几封信和一些中文翻译的信来谈论和猜测中国的耶稣会士，以及他们可能被如何被看待。当我们可以与中国学生合作时，终于能学习文化方面背后的更实际、更深层的含义。
确实有必要改善国际研究。互联网应该使它变得如此简单！
This is so interesting man
兄弟，这听起来真有意思
I wish I hadn't abandoned that class, it was fascinating! I did most of the preparation for my paper and held the presentation + led the discussion on it but didn't finish the class unfortunately.
The stark contrast between missions in India (around Goa mostly), South America and Africa compared to China and Japan was remarkable. And I came out with a real respect for the Jesuits. Them adapting to local customs, showing leniency and respecting the existing culture. They even made concessions around mass and such; also very active in learning and translating all sorts of local dialects. All in the name of the mission, but reading their letters made me think that there was an incredible drive to learn above all else.
And then they got fucked by fundamentalist orders who demanded strict adherence to dogma and everything fell apart.
It took centuries to get Christianity back into China. Also interesting, while the European mission had failed, there were already Christians in China at the time. Coming via the silk road from Syria and being independent of the Vatican. They too got into trouble because of the Vatican's meddling.
我真希望我没有放弃那门课，它真是太有趣了！ 我为我的论文做了大部分的准备，并举行了演讲，引导了对它的讨论，但不幸的是，我没有能完成这门课。
在印度（主要是果阿周围）、南美和非洲的传教与在中国和日本形成了鲜明的对比。我对耶稣会士非常尊敬。 他们适应当地习俗，表现出宽容和尊重当地文化。他们甚至在弥撒等方面做出让步；在学习和翻译各种当地方言方面也非常活跃。一切都是以传教的名义进行的，但是阅读他们的来信使我认为，他们有一种不可思议的学习动力。
然后，他们被原教旨主义者的命令搞砸了，这些命令要求他们严格遵守教条，于是一切都崩溃了。
花了几个世纪的时间，基督教才重新回到中国。同样有趣的是，尽管欧洲传教失败了，但当时中国已经有基督徒。来自叙利亚的丝绸之路，独立于梵蒂冈。结果他们也因为梵蒂冈的干预而陷入困境。
That last point is the most important, they really were at a similar technological level back then.
最后一点是最重要的，他们当时确实处于与欧洲类似的技术水平。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Thank you for your information
感谢你的回复
I just want to add, I don't know what direction your question is coming from, but in the late 14th and early 15th centuries the Dynasty in power within China at the time had serious global exploration Maritime presence. Admiral Zheng He (i'll allow almost anyone to correct that name) sailed as far as the coasts of Africa.
The fleet was somewhat suddenly and largely discontinued as a result of two notable things, as I understand. China needed to redirect their resources internally at the time, specifically to the north where there was a serious threat of Mongolian invasion. Also, the voyages of Zheng He never yielded the type of tangible profits the Dynasty in rule at the time needed to justify such expenditures. They mostly brought back exotic animals and other oddities.
我只想补充一下，我不知道你的问题是针对哪个方向的，但在14世纪末和15世纪初，当时中国国内的王朝在全球范围内进行了认真的探索。郑和上将（如果我说错了我允许任何人更正这个名字）航行到非洲海岸。
在我看来，由于两件值得注意的事情，舰队的航行在某种程度上突然中断了。中国当时需要在国内重新调配资源，特别是向受蒙古入侵的严重威胁的北方。此外，郑和的航行从来没有产生过王朝统治时期所需的有形利润，以证明这种支出是合理的。他们大多只带回了外来动物和其他奇怪的东西。
Also, the Chinese were very heavy traders and there were significant mercantile contacts between China, India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Korea, etc.
However, they also had a giant internal market that dwarfed external trade and there was not much that they couldn't get from China or their existing trade partners. When the West showed up, China didn't want anything that they had.
Basically, European silver flowed into china to purchase Chinese goods and...that's it. China didn't want anything that Europeans had, other than silver. Until the British started selling them opium.
此外，中国人是非常成功的商人，中国与印度、越南、印度尼西亚、韩国等国之间存在着重要的商业联系。
然而，他们也有一个巨大的内部市场，使对外贸易相形见绌，他们从中国或他们现有的贸易伙伴那里得不到多少。当西方人出现时，中国并不想要他们拥有的任何东西。
基本上，欧洲白银流入中国去购买中国商品，就这样...中国不想要欧洲人拥有的东西，除了白银。直到英国人开始卖鸦片。
They essentially had to sell them opium, because the massive quantities of silver flowing into China (and by extension out of british india) threatened the financial stability of Europe. In essence, the only way to continue to drink tea (which China wouldn’t allow seeds out of the country) and not destroy the financial systems of europe was to find some way to recover a portion of the silver - in this case since the empire had a standing ban on silver leaving the country, that meant smuggling in drugs to sell.
他们本质上“不得不”向他们出售鸦片，因为大量的白银流入中国 （并延伸至英属印度）威胁了欧洲的金融稳定。从本质上讲，想要继续喝茶（中国不允许种子离开中国）又不破坏欧洲金融体系的唯一方法是找到某种方法来收回一部分白银-在这种情况下，因为帝国一直禁止白银离开中国，这意味着只能走私毒品。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
East Asia was only isolated in the sense that America was empty of human beings.. which means the concept is not truthful and considered imperialistic and anachronistic today.
除非美洲一个人都没有才能说东亚是孤立的...这意味着这个概念在今天是不真实的，被认为是帝国主义和不合时宜的。
I think one reason why such a theory became popular was because the Chinese were quite the explorers until the later 15th century (right as the Europeans were emerging from Europe), when the emperor basically docked his massive navy and said no more exploration. When the Portuguese arrived 100 years later, they found the remnants of a massive Chinese fleet just rotting in its docks.
But prior to that the Chinese had explored the African coast, the Indian Ocean, and parts of the Arabian peninsula.
我认为，这种理论之所以流行，一个原因是，直到15世纪后期之前（正好是欧洲人从欧洲崛起的时候），中国人一直是探险家，当时皇帝基本上停摆了他庞大的海军，不再谈论勘探。 当葡萄牙人100年后到达时，他们发现一支庞大的中国舰队的残余正在其码头腐烂。
但在此之前，中国已经探索了非洲海岸、印度洋和阿拉伯半岛的部分地区。
From what I have read, this turning away from exploration was caused by a new, isolationist faction becoming dominant in the imperial bureaucracy.
据我所知，这种脱离探索的局面是由一个新的孤立主义派别在帝国官僚机构中占据主导地位造成的。
That idea is sort of outdated in present historiography
There is so much rich history in East Asia that is overlooked in the West, that it is almost a crime.
One example is World War 2. American, British and Chinese will all have three very different answers as to when it started and why.
“这一观点在目前的史学中有些过时”
东亚拥有如此丰富的历史，而西方却忽略了它，这几乎是犯罪。
一个例子是第二次世界大战。就何时开始以及为什么开始，美国人，英国人和中国人都会有三个截然不同的答案。
The main power to go isolationist was Japan.
Japan did end up having a major isolation period because a lot of politics finally settled down after straight up centuries and the guy at the top wanted to really iron-grip the nation.
For the longest time, the only outside access was a small port in southern japan for dutch trade. Everything else was no go.
Then america brought in huge boats. With guns. Gunboats. And these gunboats politely persuaded japan to open its borders to europe and america. This then followed with definitely not European influenced coups on the govt and from there is all went wild.
走向孤立主义的主要力量是日本。
日本最终确实经历了一个重大的孤立时期，因为许多政治分歧在几个世纪后终于安定了下来，而最上层的人想真正地以铁腕政策统治这个国家。
长期以来，唯一的外部通道是日本南部的一个小港口，用于与荷兰贸易。其他的地方都不许去。
然后美国开着巨大的船只过来了。带着枪和炮艇。这些炮艇“礼貌地”说服了日本向欧洲和美国开放边界。这之后，日本逐渐走向疯狂“绝对没有”欧洲的影响。
The only Western point of entry. They still traded with other Eastern powers, but they wanted nothing to do with the West.
“只有西方人的入境点”。 他们仍然与其他东方大国交易，但他们不想与西方有任何关系。
Not exactly. Nagasaki was the entry point to both China and the Dutch. There were a handful of other cities permitted to trade with the other small eastern powers, but overall it was just as restrictive as it was to the west.
Japanese were still killed if they tried to leave there, any priests of any non-japanese based religions were killed, China had a small district in nagasaki, which was about the only leg up over the dutch they had. It was all still highly restricted and Japan wanted as little to do with the east as it did the west, they just knew better than to butt heads with China and the country literally nicknamed "the dagger aimed at the heart of Japan" (korea).
不尽然。 长崎是中国和荷兰的入境点。 有少数其他城市允许与其他小的东方大国进行贸易，但总体上，它与对西方一样具有限制性。
如果日本人想离开那里，他们仍然会被杀掉，任何非日本宗教的牧师都会被杀，中国在长崎有一小片地区，这是他们唯一超过荷兰人的地方。所有这些都仍然受到高度限制，日本和对西方一样不想和东方有什么瓜葛，他们与中国和绰号是“瞄准日本心脏的匕首”（韩国）有着激烈的对抗。
Itis not really outdated, but more of disputed with the present scholarship. Ultimately, it could just boil down into a semantic debate on what isolationism means. it is really pedantic on the notions, but the general idea that the nations looked inward is true. Despite any specific expansion.
China did not go around seeking new products to trade for. Nor did it consider the benefits of civilizations outside of its own. Despite it expanding with new territory and tributary states. The view that China expanding on a map as indicative of non isolationism is a misunderstanding that China was not defined by hard borders, but large gradations of imperial power.
这种观点不是真的过时了，但更多的是与目前的学术研究有争议。 最终，这可以归结为一场关于孤立主义意味着什么的语义辩论。这确实是有点迂腐的概念，但对于这些国家内向化的普遍想法是正确的。尽管存在某些方面的扩展。
中国没有四处寻找新产品进行贸易。它也没有考虑到他自己之外的文明的好处。尽管它扩大了新的领土和附庸国家。认为中国在地图上扩张所以表示他不是孤立主义是一种误解， 中国不是由硬性边界定义的，而是帝国权力等级的大小。
China wasn’t really that isolated, they have maritime trade with other countries, and they were constantly fighting people around them like The BaiYue tribes, all the nomadic people, Xiongnu, mongols, etc. And countries in Central Asia, there were Chinese settlements all over south east Asia.
And they pretty much conquered all the places that is logistically possible for them to conquer, the north is too cold and not suitable for farming, desert in the north west, Tibet was mountainous, Vietnam is Vietnam.
中国并没有那么孤立，他们与其他国家有海上贸易，他们不断地与周围的人战斗，比如百越部落、所有的游牧民族、匈奴、蒙古人等。 而中亚各国，东南亚各地都有华人聚居地。
他们几乎征服了所有在后勤上有可能征服的地方，北方太冷，不适合耕种，西北是沙漠，西藏是山区，越南是越南。
Vietnam is Vietnam
So much information conveyed with no details at all
“越南是越南”
你这句话信息量太大却语焉不详
The jungles in Vietnam made it almost impossible to conquer
越南的丛林几乎无法征服
So how did the Vietnamese get there
那越南人是怎么到那里的
they had lived there for many years and were already acclimated to the environment
他们在那里住了很多年，已经适应了环境
It's been like ten years since I read about the history of Vietnam, but here's a quick summary on the topic:
The area around Vietnam is quite fertile and rice farming spread there relatively quickly from the river valleys in China, implying some Chinese origins. Once a proper state had formed there, it was difficult to invade due to the geography. However, China did come to meddle in north Vietnam several times and the south was dominated by the Cham (Austronesians) for a long period.
Thus it seems like the Vietnamese are probably a mix of several different ethnic groups that migrated to the region over a longer period. I'm sure someone from southeast Asia could elaborate on the ethnic differences within the region, as I would presume there are actually several groups that have remained somewhat distinct to this day, especially in the mountains inland regions.
我读越南的历史已经差不多十年了，这里有一个关于这个话题的快速总结：
越南周围的土地相当肥沃，水稻种植从中国的河谷相对较快地扩散到越南，这意味着有一些中国血统。一旦在那里形成了适当的状态，由于地理条件，别人就很难入侵了。但是，中国确实多次介入了越南北部，南部长期以来由占婆族（南岛人）主导。
因此，越南人似乎是在较长时期内移民到该地区的几种不同种族的混合体。我敢肯定，东南亚的人可以详细说明该地区的种族差异，因为我想实际上有几类人至今仍然有些不同，尤其是在内陆山区。
The historical Chinese name for Vietnam is "Annam" or “安南”, the "Pacified South", and I'm sure that wasn't because they were compensating for anything...
越南历史上的中文名字是“Annam”或“安南”，意为“平静的南方”，我相信这不是因为他们在平衡任何东西...
Hate to be a Chinese grammar nazi but the 2nd character is the same Nan as NanJing --> South Capital (BeiJing --> North Capital) meaning Vietnam's pinyin should be Annan not Annam?
讨厌做一个汉语语法纳粹，但第二个字与南京->南方的首都（北京->北方的首都）的Nan是一样的，这是不是意味着越南的拼音应该是Annan而不是Annam？
Apparently the word for south is pronounced like "nam" in both Cantonese and Vietnamese. (I do not speak either, just going by what I've looked up) And it first entered western languages as the [French protectorate of Annam]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annam_(French_protectorate).
显然，南方这个词在广东话和越南语中的发音都是“Nam”。（我两种语言都不说，只需看看我查到的东西），而越南第一次进入西方的语言中是以“法国的保护国安南”出现的。
pzivan
If you check the wiktionary page for the etymology of the word, the original Proto sino-Tibetan word ends with an “m”, so probably the sound in mandarin has changed.
如果你在wiktionary页面上查看这个词的词源，原生的汉藏词的结尾是“m”，所以应该是普通话的发音可能已经改变了。
Just googled it. 南 is definitely Nan in Mandarin and Nam in Canto.
谷歌一下吧。南在普通话里的发音绝对是Nan，而在粤语里是Nam。
I find it funny how yunnan (the province) sounds almost like yuenan(vietnam in chinese) + they are neighbors.
我觉得很有趣的是，云南（一个省）的发音听起来几乎像越南(越南在普通话里的发音），他们又正好是邻居。
Probably hard to take
可能很难去接管
Vietnam is frequently invaded but very rarely successfully occupied; I think only the Chinese managed to do it a few times in all of human history, and none of them lasted more than 20 years. Even Mongols spectacularly failed at conquering Vietnam three times. Vietnam usually just subjected itself as a vassal to avoid the hassle of obliterating invading armies, and most occupations of Vietnam simply involved replacing Vietnam's hegemon (i.e. France replacing China, Japan replacing France).
越南经常被入侵，但很少被成功占领；我认为在人类历史上，只有中国人成功地做到了几次，而且他们中没有一个能持续20年以上。甚至蒙古人在征服越南方面也失败了三次。越南通常只是将自己作为附庸，以避免消灭入侵军队的麻烦，而越南的大多数占领只是涉及取代越南的霸主（即法国取代中国，日本取代法国）。